A party that comes out on the other side of T1-4 will be...

[Quasqueton]

There is of course some good debate around it -- Q's trying to bolster a thesis that levelling times are fundamentally the same between 1E and 3E.

I'm always amused when people around here claim to know my "real" motives for making a post. No, let me be honest: it does not amuse me to be told I have motives other than or different from or opposed to what I directly state. Where, exactly, do I so much as mention this "thesis"?

In fact, I stated directly, in that thread, "I expected slower AD&D1 advancement and faster D&D3 advancement, too."

As I stated in the thread, my AD&D1 games advanced levels slower than my D&D3 games. But doing the research and data collection showed me that the difference in advancement was because of my DMing/play style -- I gave less gp in treasure at first, and then gave no xp for gp in my later AD&D1 days.

I would really, really appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting me. This is a major reason why I don't post here anymore. And it's also the major reason why I just stopped posting the research data.

Some people thought the information was interesting. But a vocal group seemed to take some kind of offense at the information.

I've read that; quasqueton has...his opinion.

This is hilarious. OK, no it's not.

You asked:

A party that comes out on the other side of T1-4 will be...

The module itself states directly:
Front cover: "Campaign Adventure for Character Levels 1-8"
and
Back cover: "...will take beginning characters from 1st all the way to 8th level and possibly beyond!"

The thread linked above completely supports that statement by the authors (E. Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer), and shows exactly and precisely how this happens. Yet the data is disbelieved? You call the data my "opinion"?

So rather than take the authors' word for it, or another poster's hard data on it, you're asking for what, exactly?

Wow. What would people say about that thread if the data had contradicted what Gary Gygax said?

Quasqueton

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I would really, really appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting me. This is a major reason why I don't post here anymore. And it's also the major reason why I just stopped posting the research data.

I like your posts and data. If you don't post here now, where do you post?

 

[Quasqueton]

I would guess that if you "finished" T1-4 pretty thoroughly that you'd be in the 6th-8th range if you were starting fresh with 1st level PCs in T1. That's assuming a fair amount of attrition, of course. If the players are good enough to survive straight through---and they're sufficiently thorough to find hidden loot well---then my hunch is that they'd be more in the 7th to 10th range coming out of ToEE, especially if they plumb the nodes in detail.

This seems to be the considered opinion

Wait, what? I'm confused.

Oh, oh, I get it. I'm being joked with. Other people give their opinion/anecdotes of "7-10" and it's accepted as the "considered opinion". But my hard data saying "7-10" is dismissed as "his opinion".

OK, then. Never mind my rant above. I'm just the target of ironic humor. I'll shut up now.

Quasqueton

 

[grodog]

Quasqueton, I'm not aware of folks tea-leaves reading your intentions, but I've certainly enjoyed your analyses in the past, and would be happy to check them out again in the future, whether on T1-4 or other modules.

 

[GQuail]

Quasqueton, I'm not aware of folks tea-leaves reading your intentions, but I've certainly enjoyed your analyses in the past, and would be happy to check them out again in the future, whether on T1-4 or other modules.

I may not be a "known name" but I'd like to say the same thing.

Quasqueton, I enjoyed reading your posts and I have noted your absence of late - I'd enjoy reading these threads in the future, and I'm sorry that you don't feel very inclined to post anymore.

In particular, while there was always going to be arguments about exactly what parts of the adventure a typical party was encountering (i.e. what hidden treasures they'd find and what optional fight they would endure) I thought your analysis of levelling times was an interesting one.

 

[TerraDave]

Quasqueton: I remain a huge fan of your analysis...

I've never run T1-4 to completion: my players have always abandoned it somewhere between levels 2 and 3, in general. No one has ever gotten into Zuggtmoy's restricted sub-level, either, or gotten to the nodes, and few of the players have dug as deep as level 4.

This was my first thought. Does anyone ever finish that thing? Would they want to use it all?

Slightly off topic, I did run Tsojcanth and Tharizdun in order....and it was good. S4 is already turned up to 11...I would only really, really worry about the end encouter, well, that and your campaign suddenly shifting to mythical greece or one of the other crazy things that can happen there.

WG4 is less gonzo...but does have three parts that make it easy to adjust. The first is the giant led army. This you can make harder through reinforcements, and just playing as written (they all gang up on the pcs at once...). The third, weak part, are some lesser dungeon encounters that could actually use some more zaz (even if they are from the Fiend Folio). Finally is the true lost temple. This is classic "challenge the player not the charecter", so if you just run as written, should be plenty dangerous.

 

[grodog]

Finally is the [WG4's] lost temple. This is classic "challenge the player not the charecter", so if you just run as written, should be plenty dangerous.

If you run it as written, most players will never plumb its depths, since they'll never find the juicy hidden parts and manage to win through to the final resting place of Tharizdun.

 

[TerraDave]

(The juicy hiden parts is what I was refering to, in case it wasn't clear).

My players...did a very good job of finding these. At points if was almost uncanny. Though once they got into it, I did scale back some of the "insta-death" elements.

Its very "old school", and rewards a certain kind of exploratory play. I think in our campaign, they had gotten hints that there was something more to the ziggurat then just some norkers bothering the gnomes. That alone might have been enough.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Well, Quas, thanks as always for your input - I was aware of what was written in the module but more keen to hear about individual experiences, since variations in play and so forth can produce a range of results as AD&D doesn't stick to a strict lockstep advancement system for all players across all classes and races.

Again, thanks.

 

[thedungeondelver]

(The juicy hiden parts is what I was refering to, in case it wasn't clear).

My players...did a very good job of finding these. At points if was almost uncanny. Though once they got into it, I did scale back some of the "insta-death" elements.

Its very "old school", and rewards a certain kind of exploratory play. I think in our campaign, they had gotten hints that there was something more to the ziggurat then just some norkers bothering the gnomes. That alone might have been enough.

Part of the lead-in from THE TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL will be notes found in the temple indicating other cult(s) of elder elemental beings, with some vague indications towards the temple of Tharizdun, so the players will at least have some idea that something is amiss in the Lortmils. They're a nosy bunch so I'm not worried that they may not find the temple!