A Planescape question

[Psion]

Planescapers refuse to speak of it is all. It doesn't exist.

Vec-who?



[sblock]Well, I never had it or cared much about it, but it sort of tossed some conventions of sigil aside, like gods sneaking into sigil. I understand that it miffed off some Ravenloft fans for breaking RL conventions as well.[/sblock]

Bruce, I loves the work you do, man, but stick to psionics and leave Planescape alone.

 

[glass]

Planescapers refuse to speak of it is all. It doesn't exist.

I was trying to get to the bottom of why Planesceprs would care one way or the other. Wasn't it a Ravenloft adventure?


genuinely curious glass.

 

[Toras]

You know (places hand over right eye) Mr. Hey I can keep change in here.
The god that's runnign out of things that he has two of.

 

[Voadam]

I was trying to get to the bottom of why Planesceprs would care one way or the other. Wasn't it a Ravenloft adventure?


genuinely curious glass.

It goes from Greyhawk to Ravenloft to Sigil in Planescape and ends up trashing the multiverse, allowing a multiverse change to 3e.

 

[IcyCool]

Go over to RPGnet and look up Ringwraith in the members directory, and send him an email.

Unfortunately, the filters at my workplace don't allow me access to that site, and I don't have a working computer at home.

Guess I'm out of luck, *sigh*

 

[Psion]

Unfortunately, the filters at my workplace don't allow me access to that site, and I don't have a working computer at home.

Guess I'm out of luck, *sigh*

I'll see what I can do.

 

[Shemeska]

A couple things:

1) Die Vecna Die... 'sucktastic' is the only way to describe it. Bruce has written some awesome things in his time, but everyone, even great designers, are going to have one utter flop, and DVD is his. It mangled the conventions of the worlds that it ran rampant through.

-defined the power limit for the Dark Powers of Ravenloft
-allowed deities in Sigil
-attempted to define the Lady of Pain
-redefined 'The Serpent' from Cook's original definition of it as a manifestation of Vecna's insanity and his term for abstract magic, into Cordells's idea of it as some evil uber being that used Vecna to break into Sigil, the reasons for which were never entirely there.

DVD wasn't a Planescape product, and was the equivalent of having Elminster(FR) being killed in a Dragonlance adventure by a 3rd level kobold wizard and expecting FR to reference that as canon.

The events of DVD have never been referenced since then by any 3e product, including material that covered Sigil (Planar Handbook) and which mentioned Faction War, but never mention DVD despite the carnage it would have caused. And Bruce contributed to the PlHB, so if they'd wanted to reference it and keep it, that was the chance. One can only assume that it's being ignored given the reaction to it, and the problems it causes (plus that many of the things it details have since been overwritten).

2) As much as people say that DVD happened, and paved the way for some of the random cosmology changes for 2e to 3e, none of the changes at the end of DVD mirror those that actually appear between 2e and 3e. DVD has entire outer planes vanishing, some merging, and an inner plane 'running aground' on the prime material, among other things. That's not what happened in the 2e to 3e transition though.


3) Faction War

Faction War was not the last published PS product, but it was the last to take place largely in Sigil (the Inner Planes box was the last published IIRC). It was originally intended to be about 1/3 of a much longer metaplot, which ultimately would have seen the factions return to Sigil.

I personally find FW to be one of the most brilliant modules ever written, and I don't entirely understand the other side that doesn't care for it. FW was the culmination of a half dozen metaplots that had been seeded since the original PS box set, and they ultimately came into play in FW. It is gorgeous.

FWIW, I've always run post Faction War, and outside of a minority of the factions (Sign of One, and Believers of the Source, which merged to form the Minds Eye) the others are all still around; they simply no longer have overt political power. "This City no longer tolerates your Faction, abandon it or die." has enough wiggle room for what the factions actually did. The kreigstanz is still going on just as lively as it did before, it's just more complex and it's now spread out more across the planes.

 

[Infernal Teddy]

Thanx for the input! Does anyone happen to know what the racial traits for player character Bauriar are?

 

[Sammael]

Bariaur was published in at least three 3.x sources: Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, and Book of Exalted Deeds.

Oh, and, Shemmy, the problem with Faction War is that Planescape didn't need a freaking metaplot.

 

[Alzrius]

1) Die Vecna Die... 'sucktastic' is the only way to describe it. Bruce has written some awesome things in his time, but everyone, even great designers, are going to have one utter flop, and DVD is his. It mangled the conventions of the worlds that it ran rampant through.

Shemmy, open up, share your real feelings.

Personally, I thought DVD was great. It was not only bold, but ambitious as well. The lines it dealt with pretty much died after 3E came in, so it sent them off in a fitting manner, by breaking boundaries and going where previous supplements hadn't.

-defined the power limit for the Dark Powers of Ravenloft

Only in terms of saying that they couldn't contain a god above the level of demigod. This had already been (somewhat) written out in The Awakening, and also hinted at in Vecna's entries in Domains of Dread and Vecna Reborn, which you seem fine with.

-allowed deities in Sigil

Because between Harbinger House, Dead Gods ("Into the Light"), and Finder's Bane, there's never been a god in Sigil in any form.

-attempted to define the Lady of Pain

It mentioned she had a true form, and that she spoke Aleph at the end of the adventure, and that she was part of the Ancient Brethren...major definition there.

-redefined 'The Serpent' from Cook's original definition of it as a manifestation of Vecna's insanity and his term for abstract magic, into Cordells's idea of it as some evil uber being that used Vecna to break into Sigil, the reasons for which were never entirely there.

To be perfectly fair, Cook's original write-up left room for interpretation both ways. We weren't sure if Vecna was mad, or if he really did know a secret no one else did. I don't see what's lost (though much seems gained) by saying the Serpent really does exist.

DVD wasn't a Planescape product

It didn't have the logo, but it did happen.

The events of DVD have never been referenced since then by any 3e product, including material that covered Sigil (Planar Handbook) and which mentioned Faction War, but never mention DVD despite the carnage it would have caused. And Bruce contributed to the PlHB, so if they'd wanted to reference it and keep it, that was the chance. One can only assume that it's being ignored given the reaction to it, and the problems it causes (plus that many of the things it details have since been overwritten).

One can assume nothing, since that makes an ass out of u and me. The fact that it wasn't referenced means nothing.

2) As much as people say that DVD happened, and paved the way for some of the random cosmology changes for 2e to 3e, none of the changes at the end of DVD mirror those that actually appear between 2e and 3e. DVD has entire outer planes vanishing, some merging, and an inner plane 'running aground' on the prime material, among other things. That's not what happened in the 2e to 3e transition though.

And yet, when it mentions that the half-worlds become alternate Material Planes, which did happen, that seems to have escaped your memory.