A Planescape question

[Infernal Teddy]

Bariaur was published in at least three 3.x sources: Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, and Book of Exalted Deeds.

Oh, and, Shemmy, the problem with Faction War is that Planescape didn't need a freaking metaplot.

I left my books at my Girlfiend's and I need to prep the adventure for this weekend...:\

 

[Infernal Teddy]

Oh, and while I'm at it...

What exactly caused the last Great Modron March?

 

[Sammael]

Oh, and while I'm at it...

What exactly caused the last Great Modron March?

Orcus / Tenebrous.

 

[Infernal Teddy]

Orcus / Tenebrous.

???

Explain, maybe?

 

[Shemeska]

Shemmy, open up, share your real feelings.

Personally, I thought DVD was great. It was not only bold, but ambitious as well. The lines it dealt with pretty much died after 3E came in, so it sent them off in a fitting manner, by breaking boundaries and going where previous supplements hadn't.

Admit it, you just like getting into geek fights with me.

Because between Harbinger House, Dead Gods ("Into the Light"), and Finder's Bane, there's never been a god in Sigil in any form.

1) newborn deity who is instantly booted from Sigil.
2)Dead Gods had the hacked up corpse of a deity within Sigil.
3) Finders Bane had a deity who had effectively shed his divinity walking around Sigil, feeling watched and uncomfortable the whole time

Big difference between those three and Vecna walking around Sigil playing Godzilla with the Lower Ward.

It mentioned she had a true form, and that she spoke Aleph at the end of the adventure, and that she was part of the Ancient Brethren...major definition there.

You take the core mystery of the setting, the question that should not be answered, the living plot mechanic that shouldn't be thought of as an NPC, and you try to nail it down in any way and you've crossed the line from 'bold and ambitious' into something else entirely [fill in the blank as you desire].

One can assume nothing, since that makes an ass out of u and me. The fact that it wasn't referenced means nothing.

Yet they've since mentioned Faction War, but DVD which in theory caused such massive destruction doesn't so much as get a single mention. Nor does the map of Sigil in the Planar Handbook have any evidence whatsoever of the swath of destruction Vecna caused by playing Godzilla with the city, or the events surrounding the Armory. There's absolutely nothing to suggest it.

And yet, when it mentions that the half-worlds become alternate Material Planes, which did happen, that seems to have escaped your memory.

Only by the most nebulous interpretation could you really turn that into anything that happened in 3e, and that still doesn't account for the fact that all of the other changes it says happen, didn't.

 

[Shemeska]

???

Explain, maybe?

Spoilers, see below:

Spoiler

Kiaranselee killed Orcus.

Orcus's corpse on the astral was apparently nailed with a surge of negative energy as a side effect of Acererak's actions in one of the Tomb of Horrors modules. Orcus returns to a bizarre half existant state as an undead being known as Tenebrous.

Tenebrous discovers something known as 'The Last Word' in the rubble strewn across the wastes of Pelion in Arborea. While it slowly begins to devour him from the inside out, he uses its power to obliterate a number of deities (Maanzecorian, Bwimb, one of the Aztec deities, etc) and ultimately uses it to kill Primus of the Modrons. With Primus gone, Tenebrous takes his place in the energy pool at Regulus, effectively insinuating himself into the Modron heirarchy. With that control he forces the Modrons to march out of schedule and scour the planes for his Wand, since it contains a fragment of his former living, deific essence and he desperately needs it to return himself to life, and Godhood, before The Last Word consumes him.

 

[Alzrius]

Admit it, you just like getting into geek fights with me.

Shhhhhhut up.

1) newborn deity who is instantly booted from Sigil.
2)Dead Gods had the hacked up corpse of a deity within Sigil.
3) Finders Bane had a deity who had effectively shed his divinity walking around Sigil, feeling watched and uncomfortable the whole time

Big difference between those three and Vecna walking around Sigil playing Godzilla with the Lower Ward.

That's a matter of opinion. The gods of Harbinger House did cause something of a stir before being forced out, and the dead god in Dead Gods was causing something of a panic in the city.

All that aside, the point is that you can't say that DVD killed a sacred cow - the way to gods in Sigil was getting more and more open all the time. It just followed the natural progression.

You take the core mystery of the setting, the question that should not be answered, the living plot mechanic that shouldn't be thought of as an NPC, and you try to nail it down in any way and you've crossed the line from 'bold and ambitious' into something else entirely [fill in the blank as you desire].

If you think the Lady's moving from doing nothing to "almost nothing" ruins PS, then we're of two very different minds (as though that wasn't obvious). Besides, are you forgetting that at the end of Faction War, Duke Darkwood hears the voice of the Lady in his mind, telling him about his folly?

Yet they've since mentioned Faction War, but DVD which in theory caused such massive destruction doesn't so much as get a single mention. Nor does the map of Sigil in the Planar Handbook have any evidence whatsoever of the swath of destruction Vecna caused by playing Godzilla with the city, or the events surrounding the Armory. There's absolutely nothing to suggest it.

I may be misremembering, but I don't recall DVD as causing nearly as much destruction as Faction War. While DVD may have caused a few godquakes, it was mostly Vecna going to the Armory and setting up kip while he waited for Sigil to fall apart. Faction War really was an out-and-out war in the city, so it's quite natural for the destruction there to be more widespread. Again, I tout that the lack of a mention in the Planar Handbook is meaningless...you can't prove a negative.

Only by the most nebulous interpretation could you really turn that into anything that happened in 3e, and that still doesn't account for the fact that all of the other changes it says happen, didn't.

Nebulous nothing. It says they become alternate Primes, and lo, 3E has alternate Primes. Likewise, it does say that one Inner Plane runs aground on the Prime, and twelve Inner Planes are gone..maybe that's what happened to one (it's certainly possible)?

The point being, not all of the end of DVD can be discarded.

 

[Psion]

Harbinger House made characters in the setting say How Can They Do that. Of course there were caveats and the principles were not violated.

DVD made players say How Can They Do That. And there were no caveats. It was just the author going "my big bad eeevil is really big and bad." Bad form. No points.

 

[Shemeska]

If you think the Lady's moving from doing nothing to "almost nothing" ruins PS, then we're of two very different minds (as though that wasn't obvious). Besides, are you forgetting that at the end of Faction War, Duke Darkwood hears the voice of the Lady in his mind, telling him about his folly?

She did do something in Harbinger House, rather overt in booting a deity out of the city once it transcended mortality. FW the entire thing was orchestrated by The Lady, playing Darkwood like a fool, yet DVD is totally different from the other examples. The atmosphere just isn't the same, almost to the point of it seeming like a farce or the original. It's like comparing JAWS to 'Piranha 2: The Spawning'.

I may be misremembering, but I don't recall DVD as causing nearly as much destruction as Faction War. While DVD may have caused a few godquakes, it was mostly Vecna going to the Armory and setting up kip while he waited for Sigil to fall apart. Faction War really was an out-and-out war in the city, so it's quite natural for the destruction there to be more widespread. Again, I tout that the lack of a mention in the Planar Handbook is meaningless...you can't prove a negative.

A block or two wide path of leveled buildings from Mecha-Vecna walking to the Lower Ward. Green hail taking down buildings at random. Random eruptions of flame to incinerate people. Massive cagequakes taking down other buildings. Equivalent to the Faction War damage at least.

Nebulous nothing. It says they become alternate Primes, and lo, 3E has alternate Primes.

It's a stretch, a really big stretch. And it's one of those assumptions you keep knocking me for.

And outer planes merging/vanishing entirely/new ones appearing... hasn't happened. It's like reading your obit in the newspaper but being perfectly alive and well, and then having everyone around you attempting and failing to just ignore you since 'bang, you're dead'.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Finders Bane had a deity who had effectively shed his divinity walking around Sigil, feeling watched and uncomfortable the whole time

Finders' Bane?

I've never heard of it, and I was a Planescape fanatic before AD&D died its overdue death.

Can somebody fill me in here?