A powergamer in a non-powergame.

[Kae'Yoss]

Wait, wait: This guy works for Bioware? He obviously never worked on NWN, as that turned out fine.

Or maybe he designs the cutscenes. Maybe that's all he did for the last 10 years, working on cutscenes for Baldur's Gate before working on those for NWN. He doesn't know better than to dictate everything, he things that's roleplaying

You say you want your wife's first roleplaying experience being good, but I ask you: Are you often frustrated during or after the game? I'm sure she'd pick up on that. Is it that great for her if she sees that you're in torment there? Maybe she's just being polite: She seems to have fun, but does she really? Just some things to look into.

I don't consider myself a Powergamer, except that apparently I totally am.

I am a powergamer. D&D is about powergaming. All roleplaying is, to a degree, about powergaming. A hero who can't accomplish anything has no place being a hero. He has to be good at something. Preferrably something that helps you doing hero stuff.

It's not to say that I only build twinks: I'm very concerned with characters that have personality. It just happens that I like to have effective abilities and be able to win any contest with reasonable odds. But back to the scheduled programme

My objections come from the fact that I am, apparently, a munchkin.

Did he call you one? That would be a reason for instantly abandoning the game. It's an insult. A geeky insult, but an insult nonetheless. Even if the game were stellar (which it obviously isn't), I'd walk away.

From the stuff you tell me, there's several things that would make me shy away from the game.

Hourse-rules are fine, provided they:
- make sense, are consistant with the game world
- are declared before
- are not declared at a time when they screw up what the players are doing.

Not telling someone the rules, because "they'd use them to min-max", is not only ridiculous, it's insulting.

Railroading is one of the worst crimes a DM can commit, and many things you said support the theory that he is railroading. My question to you: can you change things in the campaign/storyline? Do your players' actions have any impact?

The DMPC thing is another big offender. It's closely related to railroading, as both toss you from the stage right into some seats in the audience, or at best to the background, as an extra.

The DWS (drow weapon syndrome) is another pet peeve of mine: You artificially make the enemies stronger, but decrease the players' rewards. Instead of fighting a bloke with a +2 sword and getting a +2 sword out of the deal, you fight a bloke with a +4 weapon, which turns to dust once you try to use it yourself.

You already said that you won't change anything, and won't quit, so apparently there's some great stuff going on there. Personally, I'd be long gone, the mix of veiled insults and accusations, arbitrary rules and otherwise turning the game into a novel (and I suspect not a good one) couldn't help but anger me. I'm not into D&D to be worked up.

You said so yourself: You're here to let off steam. Isn't that what you're supposed to do, at least in part, in the game itself? I know it's for me: You get together with nice people, and then thrash the heck out of some imagined blokes. Works wonders for venting some frustration. In fact, I'm in favour of one of Wizards' writers' suggestion (forgot who it was) to start every session with a fight. The official greetings for game sessions to be "roll init!" That way, everyone focuses, and, more important, everyone can start in early getting rid of some frustration. Beat the living bejeezus out of some critters. After that, you're a better man.

But if you have to vent steam from the game, something's wrong!

 

[Nightfall]

Quoted for truth!

Yeah well it helps if the DM has some freaking outline for what's going to happen! I mean if keep winging it...you have problems all around.

Kae Yoss,

Maybe he just saw the game and thought "I can do better in RL!"

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Yep, this would be the big one for me. The game I play in at the moment has some changes from the expected rules (no prestige classes, expanded deaths door, the way languages work, racial differences and a few other things). Some of the things are not how I'd run a game, for sure, BUT at least it is all there on the table, and I can plan based upon what I know I can expect.

I couldn't care less with it is RAW or not, as long as it is consistent and fair (and published to us in as far as that is possible). That doesn't mean I need to know everything about how everything works, just so long as I know what I can do and (most importantly), which 'rule reflexes' should be turned off.

Cheers

QFT. I have no problem chaning the rules, if they're open and understood up front ... but to have different mechanics, special maneuvers, etc and "I'm not going to tell you what they are" would have me heading for the door. It's a game -- I feel people ought to know the rules for the game they're playing.

That, and DMPCs really get my blood boiling.

And if you were in a large city in the southern US rather than Edmonton, I'd swear I'd played with your DM before ...

 

[GQuail]

You already said that you won't change anything, and won't quit, so apparently there's some great stuff going on there. Personally, I'd be long gone, the mix of veiled insults and accusations, arbitrary rules and otherwise turning the game into a novel (and I suspect not a good one) couldn't help but anger me. I'm not into D&D to be worked up.

You said so yourself: You're here to let off steam. Isn't that what you're supposed to do, at least in part, in the game itself? I know it's for me: You get together with nice people, and then thrash the heck out of some imagined blokes. Works wonders for venting some frustration. In fact, I'm in favour of one of Wizards' writers' suggestion (forgot who it was) to start every session with a fight. The official greetings for game sessions to be "roll init!" That way, everyone focuses, and, more important, everyone can start in early getting rid of some frustration. Beat the living bejeezus out of some critters. After that, you're a better man.

But if you have to vent steam from the game, something's wrong!

I think this is a very accurate analysis. D&D is supposed to be fun, and if you're gritting your teeth and not having fun for session after session just because you want your wife to have a D&D experience where no-one argues, then something pretty horrible is happening.

D&D is a game, not a job: for most of us here, anyway. ;-) Treat it as a game, and don't play it if you donh't enjoy it!

 

[Ian Demagi]

HeapThaumaturgist

HeapThaumaturgist ,

Awesome post! I think you are on the right idea! Messing with DMPC's archer would be soo much more fun than putting up with the screwy rules, and railroad story line.

I think UMD is a way to go. Obscuring Mist or Darkness right before the DMPC Archer is about to fire would be hilarious. Takyris coulsd use it under the guise of "trying to get a sneak attack..."

Maybe we could all give Takyris ideas how to do this, but I am sure he will come up with some of his own.


Ian

 

[Rackhir]

I second the "run amok" suggestion. Some of my most treasured memories of D&D are when I dumped my high powered bard wanabe (1e) for a lower level CN Rogue with no stat higher than 13, named for Regan's first budget secretary - David Stockman (there's a good fantasy hobbit name!). The bard had been attracting all sorts of irrational dictates about how he should be run from the control freak DM and I had gotten sick of it.

Since I didn't care at all about what happened to the rogue, I was free to run amok in the campaign and do all sorts of bizare stuff, such as engaging in "Orc Egg" fights (the DM had decided that Orcs reproduced with eggs), attacking and killing a passing giant (with a crit!) and capped things off with talking the party into attacking a dragon that was clearly too powerful for all of us (which ended with a TPK, though I almost killed the dragon with another crit).

 

[takyris]

I think UMD is a way to go. Obscuring Mist or Darkness right before the DMPC Archer is about to fire would be hilarious. Takyris coulsd use it under the guise of "trying to get a sneak attack..."

Use Magic What-now? That skill has been removed in this game. Low magic and all.

I do have access to rune-magic. After putting in 5 ranks, I have the ability to make myself an amulet that gives me a +1 to Hide checks. I've been informed that if I keep putting in ranks, I can either get something else (like start working up the path of "geting elemental damage added to MY weapons") or make that hiding rune more powerful. We'll see how that goes.

 

[PsicrystalAffinity]

I can sympathise with that. I'm a game now that well isn't the best I've been in. I'll just relate my experiences witht hat game, and then tell you that the game your in sucks, but what can you do?

Ok so me and the my group of gamers parted company. Recently we got back together, and decided to start off again were we left off. I remembered the goods times we had togther, it was a lot of fun. Plus it would be a trip down memory lane. well they're still the same old players as they were many years ago. I however have evolved a bit since we last met. I'm still a powergamer, got better at it with experience. I perfer the story's to make sence. And nothing pleases me more then an organic campaign. Doom style wonder the maze and kill stuff bores me. I want to know why the BBEG is being a BBEG. I want to know what the purpase of the dungeon is, other then a maze with monsters in it. It's lay out shoudl sujest that. I also absolutely love it when the NPCs have different personalities, and quirks, and what not.

But enough about me. The group I'm with doesn't care about that sort of stuff. They just want to kick in the door, and smash face. I DMed for a few of them. they said they really liked this RP stuff. I thought i was toning it down for their style. They like to think their powergamers, and can make really bad, really nasty characters. one of them can, when he takes the time. The other one wouldn't be so bad at it, except he forgets the little things, like search for his rogues, and spot for his rangers, and the like. And the third is well he's a scrub. He can make one architype decently. Another ok, and anything else he is hopelessly lost on. yet everytime someone just something contary to what he thinks is best, he responds with, "why would anyone do that?" To whitch he gets, "X, Y and Z. Oh and it also allows this combo, and helps out here. Plus it synergises with C." And then his usual responce is,"But its not about making the most powerfull everything all the time." You'd i was sujjesting pun-pun or something. Most of the time it sujjesting a level of barbarian for the rage instead of a third level of fighter. Or i think my favourite, taking a third level of rogue, or multiclassing into a spell arcane spell caster for fun spells, instead of multiclassing into monk for better melee out put. The rogue had a strength of 8, and con of like 10. the last thing i'll say about the players min/maxing skills, is that he is currently on character number 3 or 4 in my camgain. I have yet to see any of his characters, ever purchase, or arquire a ranged weapon, of any kind, ever. He says that "I am a ranged weapon." becuase his speed is usually higher then 30ft/round.

So the game were curently playing is an epic one. We're all 21st level, and there is six of us. We had to patch some holes due to players moving away, not wanting to play anymore.
Player A--Myself
Player B -- My wife
Player C my sister in law
Player D-- friend of player E, real push over. Will do, go along with whatever Player E wants. haven't seen him stand up for himself yet.
Player E -- the scrub descrided earilier
Player F-- the DM. Another real passive person. Good guy at heart.

So the campaign begins, and in our first encounter, we see an powerful FR NPC get pasted by an CR 50 aspect of Lolth. We are told to run, and well we do so. We then go get Player E, and set out to defend our city from the Drow attack. We run into some more drow, and past them easily. Then the CR 50 shows up. we run again. A few comune spells, later we learn that we need artifact X, currently held by a demon prince in hell. Kinda confusing, becuase I was under the impression that demons lived in the Abiss, and that Hell had Devils. Normally wouldn't be a problem, except Demons are CE, and Devils are LE. I can't see why LE devils would follow a CE demon. But I'm not the DM, so whatever. Thats were the session ends. Nor does my +20 in knowledge the planes gain me any info on the subject.

Next session. Well since we're going to hell, i figure that we aught to research it a bit. I say, hey lets all go to the libary, and get ourselves some fore knowledge about what we're likely to run into. Nope party doesn't want to do that. Ok whatever i set out with one other party memeber. My wife. On the way we are surprised by some more drow. A couple of blasts later they are dispatched. The entire combat lasted all of 1 round, however the entire time, Player E kept asking why we weren't running back to get his character. Like we didn't know that we were likely to run into the drow that invaded the city before we set out. Becides the point, that the fight was over in one round, we still needed his character to be there for some reason.

We make it to the libary. It is under attack by 10 drow this time. the previouse encounter had 4-6. Ok surpise round,I take down 6 of them. Then I decide to go a littleeasier on my resources and summon a monolith to deal with the remander. Then the CR 50 shows up, again, and chases us of.

Get back with the party, and attempt to plane shift to hell. Doesn't work. try again doesn't work. Try talking to a high level NPC, doesn't work, doesn't help. Try mirical, fails. Commun, fails, commun specifying that we walk to talk with a representitive not the diety itself. We learn the that all the gods took a nap, and sealed the roads to hell. We need Artifact X, that is in Sigil. Session ends.

XP awarded. Apartly the rest of the party gets XP for the two encounters, that only myself, and PLayer B were involved in. Something about healing spells, at the end of the day. I could understand that they would get XP if they were even there, but they weren't. Whatever, his game. Two session still no further then session one.

Session 3. We try and plane shift to Sigil. Obviousle y fails. We end up in the back door to the matrix. Spend an hour wandering around there. Then, this old man shows up out of nowere. Says he looking for a room with a million gold pieces. the next door player E tries is it. Old agrees to show us were sigil is. i start looting. Player E feels this is immorla or some . 20 minutes, we decide not to take a single GP from the million. Should be noted here that i was the only one who saved gold from our starting whealth, and had spent 26,000gp for the benefit of the party. (The failed mirical, our cleric, DMPC, didn't feel like casting it.) whatever. we make it Sigil, and can't find anything. the rest of the session is Player E trying to get laid by our guide Kialy. And then investigating who stole the Artifact we came for. everything anyone except Player E tried failed. He on the other hand could do no wrong. Meh, at least i got some home work done. Turns out artifact Y is on the material plane in the under dark, held by the Drow. And thus the session ended again.

end of session three, again we are back were we started, with how to deal with a CR 50. Witch by the way, we haven't been given any XP for encountering, numerouse times. Player E is the odviouse golden boy, and naturally leads the party around. As well nothing anyone else can do will work. I feel railroaded, witch normally isn't quiet so bad, but I have no clue what the DM wants me to do. As a character I'd have to question what i'm doing with, and orc, that could turn pysco pathic when he stubbs his toe. (FB, DMPCs cohort.) An enept cleric asassin. A monk that is perfect in everyway, and a cleric that has all the personality of a fence post (The DMPC). I also have a druid that is trying, but like me can't seem to come up with the brilliant planes that the monk does. And a rogue, that doesn't seem to be there. (her player seems really, really bored)

The rules are applied inconsistantly, and wrong a lot of the times. Spot check as a standard action, but forgotten when it's the monks turn to attack. A knowledge check of 40 gets me only the basic tenants of the church of Sune. The call made by Player E, and then sapported by the DM. Yet it isn't metagaming when Player E knows something. despite having no ranks in any knowledge skills.

Yaa it sucks, but what can you do. I don't want to leave the group, becuase it would cuase too much trouble. I don't want to DM for them becuase it's too much of a chore. I just want to go back to playing poker. I just don't have the heart to tell them i can't play D&D with them, becuase I find it boring, confortational, inconsistant, railroaded, and am sick of trying to explain how the rules actually work. Even if i tried, they would just take it personally, and get offended. No game is worth that. I think i'll just have to start getting home work.

But yaa I totally understand were your coming from. The only thing we can do, is grit our teeth. Role-play like we're having fun. And then come here to vent.

It sucks, but what can you do?

 

[IcyCool]

HeapThaumaturgist ,

Awesome post! I think you are on the right idea! Messing with DMPC's archer would be soo much more fun than putting up with the screwy rules, and railroad story line.

I think UMD is a way to go. Obscuring Mist or Darkness right before the DMPC Archer is about to fire would be hilarious. Takyris coulsd use it under the guise of "trying to get a sneak attack..."

Maybe we could all give Takyris ideas how to do this, but I am sure he will come up with some of his own.


Ian

If he wants to make sure his wife has a fun game, then purposely trying to antagonize the GM is not the way to go. Of course, that's just my opinion. Maybe she likes to watch D&D geeks fight...

 

[Allandaros]

But yaa I totally understand were your coming from. The only thing we can do, is grit our teeth. Role-play like we're having fun. And then come here to vent.

It sucks, but what can you do?

Repeat after me: "No Gaming is better than Bad Gaming. No Gaming is better than Bad Gaming..."