A question for you firearms aficionados...

[Arravis]

I'm DM'ng a Call of Cthulhu game and one of the players is quite knowledgable on guns, ammunition, etc; while I'm fairly ignorant on the subject...

Anyway, he told me that sabot rounds do not leave barrel rifeling and therefor are nearly impossible to trace back to the gun from which they were shot. Additionally, he told me that sabot rounds are available for nearly every caliber ammunition, but that they tend to be slightly more expensive (30% or so). Does this sound correct? Why don't all criminal use these rounds if they are so much more "clean"?

 

[Zenon]

Here's some interesting reading on the subject (granted, some of it is talking about it in a Shadowrun perspective, but it'll get you up to speed):
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/ammopage.html
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/special/apds.html
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/highvel.htm

Don't let a player talk you into something you're not comfortable with.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

AFAIK, the rifling will still appear on the sabot, which falls away from the projectile after leaving the barrel.

 

[Dremen]

guns

If a gun is cleaned after it is fired, it will leave different marks on rounds than before it is cleaned. You would at most be able to tell make/model of the fire arm.

Yes sabots are available in nearly every caliber.

Most criminals are not that smart. There are other draw backs to sabots, nothing that should really efect game balance though.

They do cost more.

Do some reading on pro firearms sites about this if you want more detail.

Gun 'finger printing' is more fiction than fact.

If you want to read an entertaining book on guns and get a good basic knowlege read:

"Unintended Concequences" I forget who wrote it check amazon.

 

[Arravis]

Well, I'm trying to keep the amount of research I have to do on this as simplistic as possible... I'm having to do quite a bit of research as it is just for the back story of the plot, hehe. Anyway... so the main disadvantages seem to be that it does slightly less damage (but pierces armor better) and it damages the barrel over time. If cleaning the barrel after each "encounter" solves the rifling fingerprinting issue, that seems cheaper and better. Does cleaning the barrel each time give you just as much "protection" from forensics, when it comes to the rifling issue? And the sabot jacket... can rifling be found on the sabot jacket itself?

 

[Arravis]

Btw Zenon, thanks for the articles .

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Yes, thanks Zenon. Those were articles I didn't know I wanted to read!

 

[Dremen]

Yes cleaning the gun protects you from forensics. Allot of what you see on tv about guns is propoganda. But remember make and model are able to be picked up. The individual characteristics of each gun would only be shown if 1. The gun was not cleaned after firing the round in question. 2. The gun has not been fired a significant number of times since the round was obtained. As the rifleing will change over time.

In court when they convict criminals there is other evidence that is more pertinant. If a suspect has a firearms same make and model that killed the victim, and there is other evidence then this circumstantial evidence means more.

If you have shell casings, spent sabots, rounds and the gun in question you would have enough to piece together the puzzle.

I mentioned the book Unintended Concequenses as it goes into detail about this aspect.

Most low life criminals don't take showers let alone clean thier guns

-S

 

[Zenon]

You're welcome to everyone for the thanks.

Heck, if he's worried about rifling on slugs he may be leaving, just tell him to use a shotgun with buckshot-

smoothbore = no rifling

As another pointed out, rifling on a slug is used as part of a body of evidence collected in order to shoulder the burden of proof.

Some great shows to catch for a little insight into forensics are on the Discovery Channel (if you have access to it) on Tuesday nights:

The New Detectives
The FBI Files

Discovery Channel also has a website for them:
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/onthecase/onthecase.html

With an episode guides:
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/onthecase/episode/episode_02.html

 

[MaxKaladin]

You said Call of Cthulu. This is set in the 1930s, right? I'm pretty sure Sabot rounds were not available in the 1930s. For small arms, anyway.

You say you're fairly ignorant on the subject, so I'm going to include some basic definitions to make sure we're both thinking of the same thing since some of these terms get used to mean more than one thing. I don't mean to insult you or anything.

Anyway, what a sabot cartridge (being the entire assembly you load into the gun to fire) does is take a small bullet (bullet being the part you actually hit stuff with to cause damage as opposed to the more generic coloquial useage refering to the entire cartridge) and use a kind of spacer (called a sabot, which means shoe in French, IIRC) to allow it to fit into a casing (the part that gets left behind) designed for a larger gun. When you shoot it, the sabot guides the small bullet down the barrel. When it leaves the barrel, the sabot falls away from the bullet, allowing the bullet to continue on its way unimpeded.

The reason your friend says a sabot will leave no rifling marks is because the bullet itself is not in contact with the rifling. This is true, but the sabot is in contact with the rifling. The sabot would have marks from the rifling on it and I would think it would be possible to find the sabot (or the pieces thereof) and piece together rifling data from them in a modern lab. The trick is that the people who are doing the finding will find the sabot somewhere near where the gun was fired, probably within the first 30 yards of where the gun was, in a direct line from the spot the shooter was at and the target was.

I hope that helps.