A question for you firearms aficionados...

[mmadsen]

Consiter a 30 cal wepon firing a .223 sabot. The round will be traveling at about 25% faster than from a .30 but will be about on par with a standard .223 so while it will hit harder than a .30 it will be about the same as a .223.

I still don't know what you're saying. Originally you said the sabot round would have 25% more energy; now you say it would have 25% more velocity. (For the record, same energy but higher velocity makes the most intuitive sense to me.) Anyway, if the sabot round has the same energy (due to higher velocity but lower mass) and a smaller cross-section, it should penetrate further.

Stopping power is another issue entirely.

 

[mmadsen]

At a guess, because the projectile has less mass, which is the other important part of the equation.

Energy already takes mass into account. Kinetic energy is a function of mass and velocity.

 

[Dremen]

You would think that if this were true, cleaning your gun would be bad. I am pretty sure the brushes used to clean guns are made of brass or copper, fairly soft metals, which would not harm the barrel during cleaning.

I don't think a regular cleaning alters the barrel thread characteristics appreciably.

Sure you could run a hard brush down if you WANTED to change the pattern, but that would be pretty obvious.

Zenon - great articles!

The marks that forensics look at are microscopic. You can easily change these microscopic marks with at the solvents, brushes and cleaning patches used. It would NOT change such obvious markings at the make and model of the guns rifleing. You would still be able to tell the gun in question was a "Glock 17; 9mm" that fired a round. But the microscopic marks that would not indicate that THAT particular firearm serial number 12345xxxx fired both rounds if it was cleaned inbetween shootings.

You can also change the barrel to an after market barrel that may or may not have the same rifleing as the original factory. If you were that concerned buy a model that offered several compatible barrels form different manufactures and switch them out occasionally.

Plus hot lead moving at 2000 feet per second over time DOES change the characteristics of said barrel. If you are shooting that much you are also cleaning the gun on a regular basis (or it is not going to fire) Brass and copper are BOTH harder than lead. Plus you use solvents to break down wax, lead, and powder buildups. Solvents over time will also break down steel.

Shooters who shoot alot will have to change barrels more often as they wear out. BTW I do alot of target shooting. So I know from experience. Talk about an expensive hobby!

-D

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hello!

Posted by Arravis:
Why don't all criminal use these rounds if they are so much more "clean"?

1) Most criminals aren't exactly Professor Moriarty, and
2) Sabot small-arms ammo is rare and exotic enough that purchases of it can be traced fairly easily compared to purchases of more common sorts of ammunition.

Posted by Dremen:
Yes sabots are available in nearly every caliber.

Are they really? The only commercially-available sabot ammo I ever heard of was Remington's "Accelerator" rounds, and as far as I remember, they were only available in .30-'06 and maybe .308 Win (AKA 7.62 NATO). I've seen plastic sabots offered for sale to handloaders, but only in .30-caliber versions that hold .22-caliber bullets, just like the "Accelerators". And sabot rounds are among the many specialty loads available for 12-gauge shotguns, though these are often restricted in their sales to law-enforcement users only.

Posted by Thorvald Kirksverd:
AFAIK, the rifling will still appear on the sabot, which falls away from the projectile after leaving the barrel.

I've seen a little data that seems to indicate that rifling will leave some marks on small-arms sabots. But how useful those marks would be is open to question, since a plastic sabot would seem to be much more susceptible to all sorts of other random scratches, melting, and other things that might not mark up the metal jacket of a bullet.

Posted by mmadsen:
For the record, same energy but higher velocity makes the most intuitive sense to me.

Yes, similar (not identical) energy, higher velocity, lower projectile mass. Typical numbers are around 2900 fps at the muzzle for a standard .30-'06 with a 150-180 grain slug, and about 4100 fps for an "Accelerator" with a slug about 1/3 the mass (55 grains). Energy at the muzzle is actually a fair bit lower because of the way air resistance scales with velocity (projectile diameter is not lower at this point, because the sabot is still on all through the barrel). Incidentally, this NOT "about the same" as a .223, which typically pushes a 55-grain slug out at about 3200 to 3300 fps. It's about 25% faster, which is to be expected given the larger powder charge behind the bullet. The real benefit of the bullet, for most users, is the accuracy - the high speed makes for a nice flat trajectory.

Posted by Dremen:
You can also change the barrel to an after market barrel that may or may not have the same rifleing as the original factory. If you were that concerned buy a model that offered several compatible barrels form different manufactures and switch them out occasionally.

Or if you're talking about pistols, you could just get a Hecker and Koch HK4, which came with a kit with several different barrels and magazines that actually let you switch the weapon's caliber - .22 LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, and .380 ACP, if I remember correctly...

As Zenon pointed out, if forensics are really the concern, a good old 12-gauge shotgun would seem to be a simpler, cheaper, and less noticable solution than exotic ammo.

Hope this helps!

 

[Ace]

Hello!



Are they really? The only commercially-available sabot ammo I ever heard of was Remington's "Accelerator" rounds, and as far as I remember, they were only available in .30-'06 and maybe .308 Win (AKA 7.62 NATO). I've seen plastic sabots offered for sale to handloaders, but only in .30-caliber versions that hold .22-caliber bullets, just like the "Accelerators". And sabot rounds are among the many specialty loads available for 12-gauge shotguns, though these are often restricted in their sales to law-enforcement users only.

Good Info Tratyn.

Accelerator Sabots are also avaialable in the 30/30.

In the 1990's and up you can get all sorts of exotic shotgun ammo from Firequest

Those loads include AP, Bolo, Flechette, Flamethrower load and lots more. The stuff is IRL quite worthless and using it on a bad guy would likley get you arrested (IANAL though)

for a 1920's COC monter hunter I would equip him with a 1897 Winchester 1897 "trench" shotgun , a pistol or a revolver (if you need silver bullets) and maybe a rifle. Not that it will do you any good....

 

[]BS[Viper]

Sabot Rounds

The sabot encases the bullet. This casing flys off after the bullet leaves the muzzle. The rifling marks would be on this casing.

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hi again!

Posted by Ace:
Accelerator Sabots are also avaialable in the 30/30.

Hmm, so they were. Muzzle velocity is given as 3400 fps, comparable to a very hot .223 load. So that one is "about the same" as a .223. I'd take a good close look at such a round before stuffing it into a lever-action's tubular magazine, though.

The after-market handloader's sabots could theoretically be used in any .30-caliber case. Makes me wonder how they'd do in, say, a .30 Luger pistol catridge. I'm also curious as to how they'd perform in the .30 Carbine round - that cartridge seems to be in about the right size and energy range for the new "PDW"s that are becoming trendy (FN P90, H&K MP-7), a sabot round would help give it the more of the body armor penetration that is the PDW's main selling point, and the cartridge is common enough that the ammo wouldn't be as outrageously expensive as that in the unique new calibers of the two current PDWs.

Posted by Ace:
The stuff is IRL quite worthless and using it on a bad guy would likley get you arrested (IANAL though)

Most exotic shotgun ammo is indeed highly specialized and has little or no real advantage over standard shot or slugs in typical situations. But firng any kind of shotgun ammo at anyone will tend to get at least a second glance from the authorities.

Posted by Ace:
for a 1920's COC monter hunter I would equip him with a 1897 Winchester 1897 "trench" shotgun , a pistol or a revolver (if you need silver bullets) and maybe a rifle. Not that it will do you any good....

The old stovepipe can certainly come in handy, and is fairly low-profile - most rural authorities would hardly give it a second glance. But don't forget that automatic weapons are still legal in the 1920's in the United States (though restricted in some localities). Both the Thompson SMG and the Browning Automatic Rifle are sold commercially (the BAR as the "Colt Monitor"), and could do a lot to get a pack of intrepid monster hunters out of a jam. And they're really fun when the party member holding one loses just a little too much Sanity...

Hope this helps!

 

[JeffB]

As far as the Sabot roounds go (and thier ilk)....


Thopse old Accelerator rounds from Remington flat out sucked...accuracy wise...I tried both the 308 and 06 loadings in several different bolt action, semi-auto, and pump action rifles that would all group 3 shots under an inch of a bench at 100 yards with the right ammo. None of the Accellerator's would group under 3" for me. Not accurate enough for the long range varmint shooting I intended to use them for. .

Now regarding modern sabots...these have become quite common in modern day blackpowder firearms for hunting purposes. I can say from experience that I do not find them to have the "knockdown" or shock power of heavier mass loads travelling at lower speeds (roundballs or otherwise). The Sabots do yield much better accuracy.

On the other hand for centerfire catridges I much prefer a high velocity lighter mass weight(bullet) round for "system shock/knockdown"...for example I've found that for thin skinned big-game hunting purposes the right .25-06 load will have greater shock and wounding capability (and hence quicker,cleaner kills) than a 30-06 load with heavier mass bullets travelling at slightly slower speeds (and I prefer a higher velocity 270 Win or 280 Rem as well to a 308 or 30-06). In any event I've shot enough game with a variety of equipment to prove to myself at least what works better in that circumstance..Not to say that the )6and 308 won't do the job, they will, I just think the lighter mass higher velocity rounds will do it more consistently.

My conclusion is that in the blackpowder firearms simply do not have the efficiency needed to propel the lighter bullet weights at sufficent velocities to make a difference in performance on game.

Bullet type also has a huge impact (whether it's desined to "tumble" as someone said, or fragement or expand heavily upon initial penetration or not). One of my co-workers (a fairly novice hunter) one year complained about 2 animals he had to track for a longer distance than normal after making good shots on them. Afterwards we found little "internal" damage and poor exit wounds. I later found out he had been given some miltary ball ammo which was desined for penetration and not expansion, hence the bullets were zipping through wthout much shock vallue or destructive properties.

Perhaps more detailed than some here would like to know, but real world resullts are often a better guage than the theory

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Been meaning to post this for a few days--a few comparative ballistics.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions ...

.308 cal / 7.62x51mm

55g pointed soft point (sabot)
------------------vs-------------------
165g extended range boat tail (standard)

_______________________________

Velocity(fps) / muzzle / 100yds / 200yds / 300yds / 400yds / 500yds

(---sabot) / 3770 / 3215 / 2726 / 2286 / 1888 / 1541

(standard) / 2700 / 2497 / 2303 / 2117 / 1941 / 1773
_______________________________

Ft-Pounds / muzzle / 100yds / 200yds / 300yds / 400yds / 500yds

(---sabot) / 1735 / 1262 / 907 / 638 / 435 / 290

(standard) / 2670 / 2284 / 1942 / 1642 / 1379 / 1152
_______________________________

Trajectory(") / 100yds / 200yds / 300yds / 400yds / 500yds

(---sabot) / 2.2 / 1.8 / -3.2 / -15.0 / -36.7 (250yd zero)

(standard) / 2.3 / 0.0 / -8.9 / -25.6 / -51.5

 

[Celebrim]

My conclusion is that Sabot rounds:

a) Reduce the range increment.
b) Reduce damage.
c) Give a bonus to the accuracy and penetration attributes for the first 6 (or so) range increments.

And that's how I'd run it.

UPDATE: I've changed my mind and decided that (c) was overly harsh. It is probably enough to reduce the range increments. Eventually, the penalty from range will be sufficient to overcome the increased accuracy anyway. In many systems, firearms lose thier penetration bonus beyond a certain number of range increments anyway, so it probably isn't necessary to keep track of the range increments or add extra rules complications.

So, final (simplified rules):

a) Reduce the range increment by one half.
b) Reduce the damage by one dice.
c) Give accuracy and penetration +3.

These rules also have the nice feature of explaining why sabots are only standardly used in large caliber weapons against armored targets.

With a sufficiently large caliber long barreled weapon (such as a cannon), the range increment is going to be so large (say several hundred or even several thousand yards) that the real limiting factor becomes descerning the target not how far it is away. Similarly, with sufficiently high caliber weapons, the damage you do is pretty irrelevant - you are going to flatten a target anyway. What is important is not bouncing off the armor of the thing you hit.