A Question Of Agency?

Just a note, that while the books may not have spelled it out quite that clearly, D&D has, as a game culture, very much had a top down bias pretty much from day one. If you look at old apas and magazines even in the OD&D days the emphasis on DM authority was extremely strong, and made no distinction as to reasons.

(Note: This is not me saying I don't think that wasn't pretty overboard in retrospect).
 

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Just a note, that while the books may not have spelled it out quite that clearly, D&D has, as a game culture, very much had a top down bias pretty much from day one. If you look at old apas and magazines even in the OD&D days the emphasis on DM authority was extremely strong, and made no distinction as to reasons.

(Note: This is not me saying I don't think that wasn't pretty overboard in retrospect).

Agreed. Completely. And I think (as has been noted here and in other similar discussions on these boards) that so many gamers posting here were raised in this top-down tradition, if only because that was what they were being exposed to through the precedent of older friends or gaming circles, that they forget the ideology (to reframe Zizek) of the things they don't know they know (in this case, the mental architecture of what they assume it means to play an RPG). Which is why it is so important to keep having these critical/theoretical discussions!
 

Yeah. I employ more traditional systems like Mythras, Ubiquity, and Far Trek.

I started this thread after an argument on a different forum made me wonder if I was robbing my players of their agency because I just make up everything right before I add it to the narrative.

I fell down a rabbit hole...

Since this is a thread started to help you with your table, if I could give some advice here: beware of rabbit holes if they don't help you at the table. Online discussions are great for exposing yourself to other approaches to play. They are also great for the better debaters and the more clever posters, convincing others that their preferred style is best. And there is sometimes an intensification of ideas that occurs, where an idea that is pretty good if used sparingly or with the right degree of flexibility, becomes hardened and fanatical (where it always has to be this one way and all things in your game have to derive logically from its principles). Focus on what adds to the enjoyment of play at your table. Your table is the ultimate test of what works. I gained a lot from online discussion but it also planted some bad ideas, some blinders, and a degree of inflexibility, which I had to repair by focusing strictly on what works at the table (at the end of the day you are running the game for your group of players, not for Bedrockgames, Manbearcat or Darkbard----none of our opinions, no matter how persuasive, matter if they don't work at your table).
 

Why not? I mean, I get not wanting to have arguments over what is or is not canon during a game, but why does this guy cling so strongly to a video game?
Official-ism, I suppose.

In any case, I ceased having to worry about any of this about 2007 when that campaign ended; the one since has been a completely-homebrew setting (with which, as an aside, I've found myself unexpectedly pleased as time has gone on) and thus there ain't no canon arguments as there ain't no official canon from any external source.

Now - as per below - I just have to make damn sure I'm consistent with my internal canon. :)
There is a map of the city, but it only details some major areas. There are maps you can find online that have much more specific detail (down to naming each street and canal and many of the buildings), but the game intentionally leaves these kinds of details up to the group.

So when the need arises for a specific location, the GM can pick a spot for it, and there it is. There’s no reason they can’t also label the map so that that location is set.
OK, so there is a map. That's something. :)
This is what I’m talking about when it comes to prep. There’s no need, nor really any benefit other than preference, to determining all these locations so specifically ahead of time. Not when you can absolutely do that in play if that level of detail is needed.
Were it me I'd just assume that level of detail is needed, if not right away then at some point durng the campaign; and to avoid wasting game time filling it all in I'd get it done up front.
It’s hard to engage this half-sketched example. Why would you allow an error on the GM’s part to stand in such a way? Just amend the detail in play and don’t have the PC die because of the mistake. Why go through it all and then retcon it afterward? Just pause, acknowledge the situation, and say something like “Okay, so you had decided to make a run for it expecting the wall to be much shorter because that’s how I described it. My bad. We’ll go with the shorter distance, and you make it around the corner before the arrows hit. Sorry about that.”
If it's in the very moment it's not so bad - it's still egg on the GM's face, but that's about it. I'm talking about a situation where the PC dies, the game goes on, and sometime during the week - or next session when someone looks more carefully at the map - a player comes to me and points out the mistake.
Seriously, I feel like you’re inventing concerns that simply aren’t much of an issue, nor are they any more prevalent than they would be in prepped play.

As a counter point, I’ll bring up running Tomb of Annihilation in my 5E campaign again. Running prepped material was far more prone to errors....room sizes and positioning and all that kind of stuff matter much more in a traditional dungeoncrawl. I made a lot of minor descriptive errors, either because the room descriptions were tricky or (more often) taking what was in the book and translating it to players just allowed for minor errors or omissions.
If your players weren't mapping it you could probably get away with some minor errors. But we map, and thus if I'm just guessing at room sizes and hallway lengths it's inevitable I'm going to unfairly mess them up. (and in the fiction it's not like the PCs can't pace off the distances or even measure using lengths of string, assuming they have the time)
In this sense, I can see how you feel that details of this kind are a requirement...it’s all potentially relevant when the trap goes off and so on.

But it’s not necessary if you’re not playing in a manner that requires it. If the system or the playstyle isn't really worried about the exact location of each PC when the trap goes off....if there’s another way to handle it than D&D style grid maps and area of effects....then you don’t need that stuff.
Hmmm...I'd say distance and spatiality are important no matter what. Sure there's non-grid ways of determining who happens to be where when something goes boom; but you also need distances when it comes to things like speed and move rates, visibility (as in who can see what in fog or dim light), spell or missile ranges, and so forth.
There were far less errors once I realized the issues we were having with Tomb of Annihilation, and I adjusted. Once I wasn’t as concerned with adhering to the prepped material, our play became much more smooth and enjoyable. It was likely more cinematic and less simulationist than what you’re proposing, but there were far fewer errors of the kind you’re concerned about.

I mean, look at the example of the 800 or 600 foot wall. The conflict comes from you having one written down and then saying the other to the players. If you don't have one written down ahead of time, there’s no conflict....the “truth” is simply what you’ve told the players.
If I only ever told them 800' where my map (or my mind) says 600 then it's on me to adjust things as best I can to suit what I said to them. The players still only hear one consistent thing.

The conflict comes when I tell them 600' one time and 800' the next, and that difference somehow affects play.

The conflict also comes when I tell them a building is 70x70' on the outside then once they're inside I end up giving them 90x70' worth of room descriptions that don't fit into the 70x70 square they've drawn on the map, because I'm making it all up on the fly and due to three intervening combats over several hours I've already forgotten it's supposed to only be 70x70. I've done this in the past, much to my shame.

* - and this is exactly the sort of notes I'm awful at taking during play. :)
 

The conflict comes when I tell them 600' one time and 800' the next, and that difference somehow affects play.

The conflict also comes when I tell them a building is 70x70' on the outside then once they're inside I end up giving them 90x70' worth of room descriptions that don't fit into the 70x70 square they've drawn on the map, because I'm making it all up on the fly and due to three intervening combats over several hours I've already forgotten it's supposed to only be 70x70. I've done this in the past, much to my shame.

* - and this is exactly the sort of notes I'm awful at taking during play. :)
I have hard time imagining these sort of small things mattering and it is not like the characters in the setting could necessarily even eyeball sizes of things with that sort of accuracy.
 



Just start describing things more vaguely (and confiscate their strings.) "You see a large stone building" instead of "you see a 90x70' building." Problem solved.

I don't know. That feels like it would shatter my immersion.

When I walk into a building in real life, my User Interface pops up which gives me all building schematics to scroll through; dimensions, all ingress and egress, ventilation duct system, exterior wall material and depth, the work schedule of the inhabitants, the Starbucks barista's names, the recipe for the holiday cheesecake, the rodent's favorite cheese, etc.

I'm not even a level 12 Fighter in a high fantasy setting so imagine what info is in those guys' UI!
 

here is a map of the city, but it only details some major areas. There are maps you can find online that have much more specific detail (down to naming each street and canal and many of the buildings), but the game intentionally leaves these kinds of details up to the group.

So when the need arises for a specific location, the GM can pick a spot for it, and there it is. There’s no reason they can’t also label the map so that that location is set.

This is what I’m talking about when it comes to prep. There’s no need, nor really any benefit other than preference, to determining all these locations so specifically ahead of time.

<snip>

Why would you allow an error on the GM’s part to stand in such a way? Just amend the detail in play and don’t have the PC die because of the mistake.

<snip>

Seriously, I feel like you’re inventing concerns that simply aren’t much of an issue, nor are they any more prevalent than they would be in prepped play.

As a counter point, I’ll bring up running Tomb of Annihilation in my 5E campaign again. Running prepped material was far more prone to errors....room sizes and positioning and all that kind of stuff matter much more in a traditional dungeoncrawl. I made a lot of minor descriptive errors, either because the room descriptions were tricky or (more often) taking what was in the book and translating it to players just allowed for minor errors or omissions.

In this sense, I can see how you feel that details of this kind are a requirement...it’s all potentially relevant when the trap goes off and so on.

But it’s not necessary if you’re not playing in a manner that requires it.

<snip>

I mean, look at the example of the 800 or 600 foot wall. The conflict comes from you having one written down and then saying the other to the players. If you don't have one written down ahead of time, there’s no conflict....the “truth” is simply what you’ve told the players.
The importance of architecture, urban design etc measured down to the last inch of length is an artefact of a particular action resolution system, namely:

(i) the location of individuals is tracked on a map;
(ii) the location of threats is tracked on the same map;
(iii) the AoE of those threats is determined by extrapolating from (ii) to the fiction (eg "a cone of blasting fire 5' long is emitted from this part of this wall") to (i).

This is a method of action resolution derived from wargames.

In RPG it has been adapted to other contexts besides being hit by poison gas or cannon fire, like running races. But of course there are other, and frankly more robust, options available. For instance, for running races I prefer opposed checks (this works better in systems where individual traits are prominent relative to the random spread): this makes it fairly easy to factor in terrain, headstarts etc as bonuses, allows for ties, etc.

A lot of action of the RPGs I GM happens in urban areas, but it hasn't been necessary to know the precise length of a wall in any system for a long time. Even in 4e D&D, once the wall is longer than 10 or 20 squares its precise length ceases to matter, because precise distances only really matter in combat resolution and most of the time combat resolution doesn't invoke distances larger than that.
 

Not saying that that you're doing this, but there are parts of this formulation that I feel might lead to the sort of dogmatism that I consider harmful for actually having a fun game.
I think the concept of dogmatism is misplaced here.

I like playing backgammon. The rolling of dice is pretty important to play - letting a player just choose how far to move their pieces would wreck the game! That's not "dogmatic" - that's me wanting to play backgammon!

Of course chess players don't roll dice - but that's because they are playing a different game.

If people want to play RPGs where the GM does most of the deciding of what happens, and the players contribute narrowly-conceived of action declarations (We go to place X; we ask person Y what she's doing there; etc) but most of the outcome of the action declaration is provided by the GM either reading from his/her notes or making it up on the spot, that's their prerogative.

But using different methods means that the resulting games will have different properties. A property of backgammon, compared to chess, is its randomness. A property of the sort of RPGing I just described, compared to the sort I prefer, is the higher degree of GM vs player agency.

I.e. if one considers player agency to be desirable (valid) and any action that might reduce it to be axiomatically a problem (less so) and thus to be avoided, then that might lead to shunning perfectly functional methods.
Functional for whom?

Chess is functional for the chess players, but insisting to someone who wants to play backgammon that choosing how far your piece moves is perfectly functional is just sillly.

I don't want to play or GM RPGs with a low degree of player agency.

Like for example GM setting up quests and plot hooks is often desirable and this in itself doesn't mean that the players cannot initiate action unrelated to such prompts. I think that a huge part of GM's skillset is to gauge which tools work in which situation and completely throwing away some tools is usually not a good idea.

<snip>

Then what do you do as a GM?
I've provided examples upthread, and plenty of links to actual play posts.

As a player, I want the GM to engage my PC. Here's an extract from an actual play report that shows what that looked like (my PC is Thurgon; I had chosen to return to my homeland of Auxol; Aramina is Thurgon's sidekick; the system is Burning Wheel):
This was heading into the neighbourhood of Auxol, and so Thurgon kept his eye out for friends and family. The Circles check (base 3 dice +1 for an Affiliation with the nobility and another +1 for an Affiliation with his family) succeeded again, and the two characters came upon Thurgon's older brother Rufus driving a horse and cart. (Thurgon has a Relationship with his mother Xanthippe but no other family members; hence the Circles check to meet his brother.)

There was a reunion between Rufus and Thurgon. But (as described by the GM) it was clear to Thurgon that Rufus was not who he had been, but seemed cowed - as Rufus explained when Thurgon asked after Auxol, he (Rufus) was on his way to collect wine for the master. Rufus mentioned that Thurgon's younger son had married not long ago - a bit of lore (like Rufus hmself) taken from the background I'd prepared for Thurgon as part of PC gen - and had headed south in search of glory (that was something new the GM introduced). I mentioned that Aramina was not meeting Rufus's gaze, and the GM picked up on this - Rufus asked Thurgon who this woman was who wouldn't look at him from beneath the hood of her cloak - was she a witch? Thurgon answered that she travelled with him and mended his armour. Then I switched to Aramina, and she looked Rufus directly in the eye and told him what she thought of him - "Thurgon has trained and is now seeking glory on his errantry, and his younger brother has gone too to seek glory, but your, Rufus . . ." I told the GM that I wanted to check Ugly Truth for Aramina, to cause a Steel check on Rufus's part. The GM decided that Rufus has Will 3, and then we quickly calculated his Steel which also came out at 3. My Ugly Truth check was a success, and the Steel check failed. Rufus looked at Aramina, shamed but unable to respond. Switching back to Thurgon, I tried to break Rufus out of it with a Command check: he should pull himself together and join in restoring Auxol to its former glory. But the check failed, and Rufus, broken, explained that he had to go and get the wine. Switching back to Aramina, I had a last go - she tried for untrained Command, saying that if he wasn't going to join with Thurgon he might at least give us some coin so that we might spend the night at an inn rather than camping. This was Will 5, with an advantage die for having cowed him the first time, against a double obstacle penalty for untrained (ie 6) +1 penalty because Rufus was very set in his way. It failed. and so Rufus rode on and now has animosity towards Aramina. As the GM said, she better not have her back to him while he has a knife ready to hand.
The GM here has not come up with a quest or an adventure or a plot hook. The GM follows through on action declarations: with the successful Circles check introduces the NPC Rufus (Thurgon's brother), presented and played consistently with established backstory but also embellished in ways that the GM thinks/hopes will be interesting and provocative. As I declare further actions for Thurgon and Aramina the GM adjudicates the consequences - where they succeed (eg Aramina shaming Rufus) he honoured that; where they failed (eg the attempts to Command Rufus) he narrates the failure in ways that he intends to drive things forward (Rufus turns into something like a Wormtongue character - though we don't yet know who "the master" is).

As a GM, I do the same sorts of things. There are differences across systems - eg in Prince Valiant I want to present opportunities for gallant errantry; in Traveller I want to present worlds for the PCs to travel to in their starship - but the core is following and building on player goals for their PCs.
 

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