A Question Of Agency?

[FrogReaver]

If the PC is attempting to deceive or persuade or intimidate an NPC and it's roleplayed instead of rolled, I think that's your example. Of course, I don't think I separate action-resolution from roleplaying so strictly as you do: I don't think a player ceases roleplaying the instant they pick up dice.

That’s fair. So for you roleplaying is more of a state than a discrete act.

 

[prabe]

That’s fair. So for you roleplaying is more of a state than a discrete act.

That seems accurate. If you see combat as a facet of roleplaying, the player doesn't stop acting as the character if they miss an attack--and even less if an opponent resists/saves against something like a spell (trying to be somewhat system-agnostic).

 

[hawkeyefan]

I must be missing something here - how is disliking magic item wish lists a dick move?

Or does the dick-move part lie in not fulfilling the player's adventure request? If done maliciously, I could see the dick part of it, but if the DM has set up a string of desert-based adventures and a player asks for something in the arctic, the player at best is going to have to wait. Even more so, perhaps, if other players have asked for undersea, jungle, and mountain adventuring after the desert bit is done.

Not talking about magic item wishlists, so I'm not sure where you got that. If you're taking what I'm saying and applying it in that area, then all I have to say is that wishlists like that should be considered, for sure.

It's more about the concept of the PC searching for his brother being considered and added to play, to simply be negated or seriously altered by GM fiat. Not over time, not in response to player actions, just out of hand decided.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think it’s worth noting that in sandbox play there’s often a good bit of dice deciding things behind the scenes because the DM views the competing goals of the factions as pretty uncertain regarding which will come out on top in any event.

Which is to say, the players brother dying was likely not decided without some randomness involved.

 

[Aldarc]

fair enough. I still think it is relevant. I mean it is a good faith action if I assert this is a norm in the community I am talking about, and people push back, for me to ask the community in question if it’s the case. It isn’t the same as a formal poll, obviously

I understand that your play does not exist in a vacuum. I hear your frustration about the pushback you are receiving, and I do believe that you are making these assertions in good faith. My issue with these straw poll declarations is it lacks substance as part of an argument. You find it relevant and convincing, but you aren't trying to debate or converse this with yourself, but with us. If I literally asked all the like-minded individuals or my community of peeps about an issue pertaining to our common interests, I would likely get a bunch of similar replies that confirmed our gaming approaches. There is a lot of potential confirmation bias at play here. It does not feel like a meaningful assertion to make, and it does little to further the topic of conversation further towards a mutual understanding. It seems to be a weakly constructed argumentum ad populum, and I do trust that you have thought through your play preferences or understandings enough that it has more substantial argumentative underpinnings than that.

It's more about the concept of the PC searching for his brother being considered and added to play, to simply be negated or seriously altered by GM fiat. Not over time, not in response to player actions, just out of hand decided.

What if the brother's fate was determined via rolling on a random table? (And presumably the player likewise knew beforehand that such mechanics were being used.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think it’s worth noting that in sandbox play there’s often a good bit of dice deciding things behind the scenes because the DM views the competing goals of the factions as pretty uncertain regarding which will come out on top in any event.

Which is to say, the players brother dying was likely not decided without some randomness involved.

This is a good point. They also often rely on other procedures. I have a whole system I devised for sect wars (this is the original version of it, but I have made a more streamlined version for something I am working on now: WAR OF SWARMING BEGGARS CHAPTER ONE: RUNNING THE ADVENTURE). Definitely when there is doubt over outcomes, I like having handy procedures. I do also think the GM can just decide if he or she thinks outcomes of screen are obvious. But I prefer to roll for that sort of thing because I think that is more fair.

 

[Aldarc]

I think it’s worth noting that in sandbox play there’s often a good bit of dice deciding things behind the scenes because the DM views the competing goals of the factions as pretty uncertain regarding which will come out on top in any event.

Which is to say, the players brother dying was likely not decided without some randomness involved.

I asked something similarly just now. I suspect the issue has more to do with the GM's fiat to make unilateral setting declarations removed from mechanical play procedures.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think you read to much into it. I think it helps to point out something isn’t an isolated playstyle.

Are any of the playstyles we're discussing isolated? Are any not popular enough that we need some kind of anecdotal support that others share this opinion? I mean, it's a given.

Are you using his definition of player agency or your own?

Both.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's more about the concept of the PC searching for his brother being considered and added to play, to simply be negated or seriously altered by GM fiat. Not over time, not in response to player actions, just out of hand decided.

The point people are making is, in a sandbox, the GM deciding the brother is dead, wouldn't be an act of negation. The player was always free to search for that, but he or she was never free to determine the brother's status. And the concept is the GM would determine that early on most likely. Or he may decide something more nuanced like the brother is in peril on an island somewhere (I don't know perhaps he got shipwrecked on the isle of dread) and there is a weekly chance of him dying (which the GM would probably eyeball and set: or he may roll based on the brother's level which is what I would do). It may even be a more elaborate arrangement where the brother is potentially taking damage as they search). Either way, the state of the brother is up to the GM, and I think the thing that adds agency and excitement to this is the external unknown. If the players arrive and discover had they got their a week earlier, the brother would still be alive, that is interesting to me, and it gives me the sense that my choices did matter (because maybe the week delay was the product of a choice we made and in hindsight was a bad one).

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think it’s worth noting that in sandbox play there’s often a good bit of dice deciding things behind the scenes because the DM views the competing goals of the factions as pretty uncertain regarding which will come out on top in any event.

Which is to say, the players brother dying was likely not decided without some randomness involved.

Except that wasn't what was said. it was a lot of "In this style, the setting is the purview of the GM" and similar talk.

What if the brother's fate was determined via rolling on a random table? (And presumably the player likewise knew beforehand that such mechanics were being used.)

If this was the expectation prior to play, then I'd probably craft a man with no name type character and the matter of the brother would be moot. Just murderhobo my way around the setting and grab loot and whatever else was the thrust of play absent PC specific goals.

If instead, the idea of my PC specific goal was to be seriously considered, I'd expect it to involve more than a dice roll.....although I suppose that depending on how things went, if that's what it boiled down to, I'd accept it, sure. Certainly seems better than the GM simply deciding his fate.