A radical solution for dealing with 4e grind - halve ALL HP

[Kunimatyu]

I loved 4e right when it came out - a lot of 3.5's problems were fixed, it was easier for new players to grok the system, monsters were easier to run, etc. etc.

Then I noticed that 1-2 combats were taking 75%+ of the session time, and things got less fun. Players noted that combat often felt like chopping down a tree, where it took a lot of actions to take down an enemy.

One solution I've heard is to halve monster hp. I like the idea, but it by definition reduces the difficulty of the monster. Changing damage output, either from the PCs or the monsters, seems dicey too, because resistance and vulnerabilities key off of damage directly.

So how about this - halve monster hitpoints, but also halve PC hitpoints. Thoughts?

 

[joethelawyer]

I loved 4e right when it came out - a lot of 3.5's problems were fixed, it was easier for new players to grok the system, monsters were easier to run, etc. etc.

Then I noticed that 1-2 combats were taking 75%+ of the session time, and things got less fun. Players noted that combat often felt like chopping down a tree, where it took a lot of actions to take down an enemy.

One solution I've heard is to halve monster hp. I like the idea, but it by definition reduces the difficulty of the monster. Changing damage output, either from the PCs or the monsters, seems dicey too, because resistance and vulnerabilities key off of damage directly.

So how about this - halve monster hitpoints, but also halve PC hitpoints. Thoughts?

My suggestion would be to give xp for gold and gp value of magic items, as in AD&D, and in a greater proportion than that gotten from killing monsters. Change the xp progression accordingly. That way the game isn't so combat focused, and the players can be more creative, and characters wouldnot be the sum of their stats.

 

[Gort]

My suggestion would be to give xp for gold and gp value of magic items, as in AD&D, and in a greater proportion than that gotten from killing monsters. Change the xp progression accordingly. That way the game isn't so combat focused, and the players can be more creative, and characters wouldnot be the sum of their stats.

I don't understand how you get from the first half of your statement to your second half. Surely characters with better stats will be able to steal/acquire more than those with worse?

And since when was the point to "make the game less combat focused"? It sounds like you're answering the question you want him to have asked, rather than what he did ask.

 

[Kunimatyu]

My suggestion would be to give xp for gold and gp value of magic items, as in AD&D, and in a greater proportion than that gotten from killing monsters. Change the xp progression accordingly. That way the game isn't so combat focused, and the players can be more creative, and characters wouldnot be the sum of their stats.

Not the issue at all.

(I love the XP=gold OSR/OD&D idea as much as the next guy, in fact I'm using it in my Savage Worlds sandbox right now.)

BUT.

The issue is that I'd like to still have 1-2 level-appropriate combats a session without them eating a majority of game time, and I'd like feedback on the idea of halving all hitpoints as a means to accomplish this.

 

[Gort]

I'd probably play out a few practice combats (with your players, or on your own) just to see if it does what you want it to.

My concerns might be that focussing attacks on individuals would become too powerful - it might be easily possible for monsters played well to take out the party leader in one round, before players have a chance to do anything.

Combat will certainly go quicker, but it may become more fatal than you would like it to be.

If you try it though, please report back in this thread to let us know how it went!


Tips for faster combats in general

It may be that your party is just too defensive in makeup, perhaps? If you have a defender who uses a shield, or just not many strikers in general, combats will take longer to resolve.

Maybe encouraging your players toward more damaging builds would help them chop through the monsters faster?

Another thought might be to have your monsters flee or surrender if they are bloodied and the fight doesn't look like it'll have a tense resolution.

Perhaps encouraging your players to use the intimidate skill (chance to make enemies surrender if they are bloodied) could speed the ending up a bit as well.

Your monsters may also be too defensive - soldiers in particular are supposed to be extremely hard to kill and do low amounts of damage. Try swapping brutes, lurker or skirmishers for soldiers wherever possible.

Don't use over-levelled solos. Solos gain a lot of defense and HP when you put them above the party level. Instead, run a solo monster of the party level, but give him some backup. He's a powerful monster, give him some flunkies to back him up. Artillery is good for this.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I don't get much grind, but I have only seen it about twice so far. In one case I have seen the ranger was rolling badly, almost no roll above 6 in an 8 hour session and the other players were not helping the paladin by providing flanks on the enemy.

On the other hand I have seen characters that get mobbed go down in 3 rounds or so, even defenders. If you half their hit points then a well set up ambush could wipe the party in no time flat.

 

[ppaladin123]

I suggest you read Stalker's post about reducing grind. It is more about carefully picking monster roles, levels, and tactics than simple HP padding.

 

[alleynbard]

I suggest you read Stalker's post about reducing grind. It is more about carefully picking monster roles, levels, and tactics than simple HP padding.

I echo that sentiment.

Here is the link.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254630-stalker0s-guide-anti-grind.html

His method is pretty impressive.

Now, I haven't seen much grind but most of my combats have been rather close to my party's level. If you are seeing grind, I think Stalker has the best system without changing the underlying way the rules work.

Your idea does seem to have merit. I would suggest, as others have, of running a few tests with every creature role to insure it works the way you want it to. I can't imagine it wouldn't, but you never know.

Do you plan on altering healing surges as well?

 

[Stalker0]

If you do decide to reduce HP, I wouldn't cut it in half, try only cutting out 1/4 to start.

The reason is that 4e party's damage tends to start out really good as the dailies and encounters are flying, and then drops as they get delegated to at-wills. The first 50% of monster hp can be cut through in short order, its the second 50% you grind through.

With 1/4 of their hp gone, the party doesn't instant kill monsters, but has fewer rounds of beating them down to defeat them.

So try that first and see how it feels.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I suggest you read Stalker's post about reducing grind. It is more about carefully picking monster roles, levels, and tactics than simple HP padding.

I have, and it's a great guide, but here's the thing -- if I have to carefully plan tactics/roles/levels every time to get a satisfactory combat resolution, then by definition there are tactical/role/level combination that really can't be used at all.

When I run a combat, I'd like be able to improvise a quick tune from time to time, not write a symphony.