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A radicial change: removing Divine casters and others

BRP2

First Post
Basically, I'm writing up a set of house rules that work with the flavor of my campaign world I'm building. I haven't been able to test anything, and right now am doing everything on paper. The biggest change would be to magical classes. It's important to note that feats will be given out every two levels. Here are those changes: (you'll notice a lot of inspiration from UA)


Complete removal of Paladin, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer. Some of their spells might be added to the Arcane caster list. I'm not sure about Cure spells. Removal of all-spell casting ability of Ranger and Bards.

Rangers. Gain some of the benefits of the Scout class and can progress both with Favored Terrain and Favored Enemy(given both at level 1 and can choose which to enhance every 5 levels after).

Bard. which I need help with, will be given a single choice out of the following (small) melee bonuses: Sneak Attack, Range(Throwing Knives) feats, and Swashbuckler-style fighting. The part I actually need help with: this Bard is now more focused on music/poetry/story-telling to take the place of their magic, not exactly, but in terms of usefulness.

Fighting Style Monks.

Totem-based Barbarians.

Fighters. Lose level their 2 feat. Gain "Favored Fighting Styles" at level 5, 9, 13, 17. I have not developed these, but they are pretty much bonuses based on archetypes that have prerequisites. Like a style based on being an Archer who snipes from far away, or a dreadnought type character that is given bull-rush style bonuses, or a defender type that uses their shield as a weapon, or a swashbuckler type, ect. Prerequisites would be feats that match the bonuses given, in addition to the Fighter have to at least once perform that fighting style(like bull-rush a large amount of targets once in his career to select the dreadnought favored fighting style). A Fighter can choose to gain a new Favored fighting style instead of increase the strength of a previous one. If a Fighter meets no prerequisites or simply wants it, he will gain the "Battle-Hardened" fighting style, which gives a +1 Initiative, +1 AC against AoO, and +1 Attack with AoO per bonus.

Finally, the Wizard class is split into 8 specialist classes, exactly as listed in UA. It's impossible to be a 'main-stream' Wizard. They still keep their bonus spell, unlike the variant, but half the spells they prepare must be of their specialized school. Thinking about giving them a d6 hit die.

Added Classes:

Artificer and Spellthief.

Knight. 4 + INT Modifier skills. Gain Heal and all Knowledge skills except Arcana and Nature.

Dragon Shamans. In this setting, they are worshiping a dragonic race/god(it's not an option otherwise).

Mage Blade and Champion, from Arcana Unearthed. Not completely sure, would like to hear opinions on these.

A Shaman class with limited spell casting that is almost completely based on elements who also abide to the totems they share with Barbarians. I have not developed or found any classes to based this on. I was considering Dragon Shamans, but decided to make it a class on it's own, since dragon gods are one of the few worshiped ones. (Use WIS as main spell casting stat).

I know this is a lot of information to give out at once... but its fine, even encouraged, that anyone reading this focuses on one of the above variants instead of all of them when giving their opinion. I'm especially looking for a Bard that fits what I'm trying to describe(at least the focus on songs portion). And to a lesser degree the same for a totem-based shaman that focuses on elemental magic.

I'm looking to limit the amount of cure spells somewhat. I'm thinking about using "Reserve Points" for this, which is simply having a number of HP you can cure yourself with on hand when not distracted. I think adding all the cure spells to a school of magic might make that school over powered.



For lore purposes(to put some understanding): Gods outside of some nature/elemental spirits play a very small role in the world. In addition, there is no Divine magic, but simply Arcane and only Arcane magic. Religions vary from each other, from transcendentalism, diabolism, worshiping of family spirits(primary Dwarves, Gnolls, and Gnomes), worshiping of nature(primary Trolls, Halflings, Orcs, and some Goblinoids), worshiping of a sun-based god(primary Humans) and worshiping of two Parthenons of Dragon and Elf Gods(primary Elves, Kobolds, some Gobliniods, Lizardfolk, and Minotaur). And atheism of course.

Continent is split into many regions, but four most important regions would be a(n): Elven magic empire, uncivilized land for nomads, a stripe of many small Dwarven democracies, and Hobgoblin socialist empire. In between are Human theocracies or democracies and at least one nation made up completely of Gnolls and a Vampiric subrace of Elves. In this setting, at least on this continent humans are not the most successful or expansive or technologically advance race, but play a role similar to Halflings or Dwarves in other settings.
 
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Phlebas

First Post
Even with reserve points, people are going to want to maximise healing - Its the obvious question, but where is healing going to come from - i only see dragon shaman as able to cast any healing spells (i think, dont have that rule book to check) and you've said they have restrictions

If you really want to do without heal spells, then you are going to have to really be careful with encounter design - i foresee the party running away lots as soon as their warrior takes any significant damage

I remember reading a while back of a cleric free system where cure spells were on the necromancy arcane list (and all wizards were specialists), which made going to the doctor an interesting experience. Certainly gives a unique flavour if the healers are also despised for necromancy, or alternatively that necromancy is an accepted part of life (like Kharnath in Eberron)

An alternative is to allow Artificiers to create cure potions and infusions and then they fulfill the cleric support role, though in a different way. Reading the campaign setting, it seems that elves are the dominant civilised race, so arcane healing would seem to make sense
 
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BRP2

First Post
Yeah, I'm thinking of giving arcane curing spells, but I'm not sure I want to limit it to a single school. In this setting, necromancy is treated like any other kind of magic in the Elven nations(especially the vampiric one, it's a way of life). The stereotypical humans naturally find magic untrustworthy, but are not completely against, so one can tell they don't like Necromancy. Otherwise, it's just another school of magic.

Maybe I should add different kind of cure magic to schools. A draining series of cure spells for Necromancers, summoning of curing water or food for Conjurers, and a little more straight forward, but weaker set of cure spells for Transmuter. I'm afraid it might cause a powershift however.

An alternative is to allow Artificiers to create cure potions

Hmm yeah, this will do, in addition with above. Another alternative was to give Bard a song that gives a fast-healing sort of trait.

"Totem Shamans", however I stat them, will probably have the same curing abilities as Dragon Shamans do.

(Thank you and keep them coming)
 

Phlebas

First Post
Just remember what life was like for clerics before spontaneous casting of heal spells - all their slots were taken with healing. Thats why i suggested artificers

If you want to go to Arcane specialists, why not use Sorcerer as the base class, and have a restricted list depending on specialism. If every list had at least some curing....[I like the idea of different style of curing per specialism btw]

But if you restrict sorcerer lists (which i do in my campaign btw) you might want to offer more spells known / cast. Maybe give them the + 1 spell per level that specialist wizards get. That gives you some healing without turning the mighty wizard into a band aid dispenser.
 

houser2112

Explorer
BRP2 said:
A Shaman class with limited spell casting that is almost completely based on elements who also abide to the totems they share with Barbarians. I have not developed or found any classes to based this on. I was considering Dragon Shamans, but decided to make it a class on it's own, since dragon gods are one of the few worshiped ones. (Use WIS as main spell casting stat).

This sounds a bit like the Shugenja from Complete Divine.
 

Emirikol

Adventurer
Behind The Curtain..reasoning For Change Not Revealed To Players

I've done what you say in my Conan campaign and playtested many versions. My intent was not to remove magic, but to make it feel more like a "sorcery" world instead of a "magic is controlled by anyone" world.

I'd like some feedback from you guys on these opinions I've formed.

Some advice:
1. Don't create a behemoth house rule. KISS keep it simple stupid. The larger your house rule, probably the less necessary it is..this is true of many things.

2. Players hate when you take away options (like removing classes..better to just 'disincentivize them..see below).

3. Make sure you make it CLEAR TO THE PLAYERS why you are doing it. It can't be just because you don't like the system. Players don't FALL for that one. Make it "campaign-related" such as "because this is a magic-focused campaign" (i.e. a B.S. term saying that you're low-magic without saying it...magic focused implies that the wizards hold all the power. "Because in our world, all magic is arcane and the gods probably dont exist..if they do exist, they certainly don't grant spells..magic is magic is magic and it's just another element in the world like fire and water..but it's secrets must be discovered to be channelled and are more often than not, revealed to humans by demons and ancient texts..and much less by accident or research."

Now, onto the house rules:
* HOUSE RULE: Steel is stronger than magic. Non-magic classes and the wizard or shugenja gain a bonus feat at second level.
** CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND: Those who do not spend time learning obscure magic, have time for other things.
** BEHIND THE CURTAIN: Encourages the types of classes you want.

* HOUSE RULE: All magic is arcane and all magic is subject to arcane spell failure for armor.
** CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND: Magic is the secret element. God's do not grant spells and do not meddle..if they even exist.
** BEHIND THE CURTAIN: This seriously dis-incentivizes clerics, bards, rangers, paladins.

* HOUSE RULE: Non-Magic Ranger and Bard option: Rangers may use the one in Complete Warrior. Non-magical bards gain a bonus feat every 3 levels and add two to their base skill points per level multiplied by intelligence.
** CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND: The vast majority of Rangers and Bards do not practice magic.
** BEHIND THE CURTAIN: Players who want to play these classes without magic are incentivized, but if they still want to play the magical version (with huge armor penalties) so be it.

* HOUSE RULE: Wizards and sorcerers (and shugenja's if you use them) can create their spell-list from ANY list (meaning they can cast all the dang cleric spells they want), HOWEVER they must have a specialist magic field (i.e. illusion, evocation, etc.)
** CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND: Wizards hold all the cards. They are not as constrained as false-priests or classes who dabble in magic.
** BEHIND THE CURTAIN: Incentivize focused magic and disincentive clerics and magic dabblers.

OTHER OPTIONS TO DISINCENTIVIZE SPELL DABBLERS
* HOUSE RULE: Turn undead is available as a scroll
** CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND: Wizards discovered how to do this a long time ago.
** BEHIND THE CURTAIN: Disincentivize clerics. Incentivize wizards.

* HOUSE RULE: Psionics are arcane magic and thus affected by armor.
** CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND: Psionics do not just come from the mind. They come from the entire body (afterall, nerves flow to every cell, tissue and organ in the body from the brain don't they!) They too are affected by arcane spellcasting in armor.
** BEHIND THE CURTAIN: Get's rid of psions in platemail (a personal pet peeve of mine).




jh

..
 

Phlebas

First Post
wizards can cast divine spells, divine casters suffer arcane spell failure due to armour - 2 simple changes that wipe out almost any incentive to play a cleric. Emirikol is a genius. Anybody that plays a cleric is just a stunted wizard with more HPs....

If you really want to control magic use, make PC's spend a feat to cast spells (you might want to give everyone an extra one at 1st level to make up for it as another bonus for non-spell casters - you did say you wanted to dish out more feats per level).

If you rule certain races have this feat for free then anyone casting magic is likely to want to be that race (which seems to fit with the background dominated by wizardly elves and savage tribes).
 


Emirikol

Adventurer
Quartz said:
How about transferring the fighting styles to the ranger, keeping the fighter as the generic class it is?


We thought about that in our old group and in fact had an entirely-too-complicated system for doing so, but since there's already a mechanic in place (Complete Warrior alt verision) that is much simpler. Follow the rule of: KISS keep it simple stupid.

I don't believe there is a magic-less bard, however he would be easier to convert. More feats and skills are a very easy, balanced fix.

jh

..
 

BRP2

First Post
I'd prefer changing Bard into something more focused on music/arts/whatever than more skills or feats.

My reasoning for removing classes/options is because they simply don't exist at all for the most part. However, there are alternatives for each of the jobs removed. Champions and Knight takes the place of Paladin. Clerics are replaced by Abjurers and Diviners for the most part. Druids are replaced by Shamans and to a lesser extent, Dragon Shamans.

The "Favored Styles" given to Fighters doesn't make them any less general. They are pretty much "Super Feats" that rewards Fighters who design their character after an archetype, like Archer or Duelist or ect. The list of "Favored Styles" isn't restricted to two or three, but a potentially endless amount of fighting styles that could be made up on the spot by the player and DM(me). Alternatively, a Fighter can avoid all feat-trees and build an unfocused character and still get a bonus.

While I do respect "KISS", sometimes it's not possible if one aims for a unique feel.
 

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