A Rant about Wisdom

[Calico_Jack73]

Okay, I keep seeing in numerous posts that people seem to think that Wisdom = Willpower. Let's face it, real willpower has more to do with force of personality, thus Charisma, rather than Wisdom. Wisdom is simply the ability to make use of knowledge, or better yet Common Sense. The analogy has been made before "Intelligence tells you that it is raining outside, Wisdom tells you to get inside before you catch a cold". What in the world does the use of knowledge have to do with sticking to your ethics (willpower)???? There are doctors who know full well how bad smoking is for them yet they continue to smoke. Wisdom tells them that by smoking they could shorten their own lives. However, their willpower is what is lacking, not wisdom. Charisma is seen to be a force of personality rather than whether a PC is good looking or not. When did you last meet someone with a very forceful personality who was easy to talk into something they didn't want to do? Charisma could also then be said to be your sense of self which further justifies using it for Willpower saves rather than Wisdom.

Comments?

 

[CRGreathouse]

"Wisdom tells them that by smoking they could shorten their own lives. However, their willpower is what is lacking, not wisdom."

I see this as Int that tells them, and the lack of Wis stopping them from quitting.

In general, I don't see anything convincing here, especially since it comes down to the definition (that is, it's arbitrary). In 3rd edition (3.0 and 3.5), Wisdom is defined as willpower and sensitivity to outside events.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm not sure why this is in House Rules, so I'll slide it over to General.

 

[Altalazar]

I think it makes sense - I think the force of personality represented by Charisma is that which you wield over OTHER people and Wisdom is force of personality over YOURSELF.

You could have all the personal willpower in the world - don't drink, don't smoke, don't drink squishees - but still not have any leadership whatsoever.

Just like there are some great leaders who are horrible drunks or smoke like chimneys because they can't stop themselves.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I think Wisdom would have been better named "Intuition."

I also think Wisdom should be used to determine bonus spells for ALL spellcasting classes (they intuitively understand things a little bit better).

Intelligence should still be used for wizard spell DCs.

I also think Charasma should be used for Will saves and on Cleric spell DCs.

So do I agree? I think I do to a certain level. I don't expect my players to agree with me, so we just use the ability rules as written.

 

[Trickstergod]

I don't entirely disagree with your statement, but a few things to consider:

A low Charisma, high Wisdom individual could be seen as the person who eventually goes, "Yes, I see your point now. I'll vote for group X," then goes and votes for group Y. Nonconfrontational, but passively resistant.

Also consider that a Charismatic individual, to a degree, will do what's expected of them to be seen in a better light. They will compromise their own values so as to gain others under their banner, or to be seen as popular. They may set trends, but they're also bound by them, to a degree. They will, at times, cave in to what's popular to avoid being ostracized. Of course, they may spin-doctor their flip-flopping to make it seem natural and done of their own accord, but that's what a Charismatic individual does. They make themselves look good.

Some people are also considered uncharismatic because they have such a strong will, because they're stubborn and refuse to compromise. A highly willful individual will potentially lack some of the tact that a more Charismatic one would maintain.

Now, perhaps that doesn't entirely and satisfactorily explain it all, but hopefully it helps a bit.

Okay, I keep seeing in numerous posts that people seem to think that Wisdom = Willpower. Let's face it, real willpower has more to do with force of personality, thus Charisma, rather than Wisdom. Wisdom is simply the ability to make use of knowledge, or better yet Common Sense. The analogy has been made before "Intelligence tells you that it is raining outside, Wisdom tells you to get inside before you catch a cold". What in the world does the use of knowledge have to do with sticking to your ethics (willpower)???? There are doctors who know full well how bad smoking is for them yet they continue to smoke. Wisdom tells them that by smoking they could shorten their own lives. However, their willpower is what is lacking, not wisdom. Charisma is seen to be a force of personality rather than whether a PC is good looking or not. When did you last meet someone with a very forceful personality who was easy to talk into something they didn't want to do? Charisma could also then be said to be your sense of self which further justifies using it for Willpower saves rather than Wisdom.

Comments?

 

[Victim]

Well, my problem with Wisdom is that it's one of the more broadly defined stats. It covers willpower, perception, empathy, divine spellcasting, intuition, and, well, wisdom. While most other stats cover multiple areas, those areas are somewhat related. But with wisdom, it's easy to see characters with large differences in the component areas so that viewing the stat as total makes little sense.

 

[Bauglir]

My 2p.

INT = The ability to gather and process raw information (eg search skill - methodically scanning an area to find out as much as possible)
WIS = The ability to process raw information into useful information (eg spot skill - the ability to quickly pick out something important in what you see)
CHA = The ability to present information to others in the form you desire (eg Bluff skill - attempt to build up a lie (false information) vs Sense Motive(WIS) picking up on inconsistencies in what you say (or perhaps how you say it))

Why is a will save based off wisdom? Because generally speaking will saves are versus an effect that attempts to alter how you see the world.

(Vampire uses its charm ability. The mind of the target is fed new information that the vampire is their friend. INT doesn't do anything with this - you already know the vampire's your friend and there isn't much else to deduce from that. CHA might come into it later when you try to convince your friends not to attack your good friend the count. WIS on the other hand tries to process the information, picking up on the fairly important detail that the vampire is in fact NOT your friend, hence will save = WIS)

 

[Plane Sailing]

I redefined Cha to include willpower (and Wis not to) from day1 with 3e; at the same time I made Cha the stat to add its bonus to Will ST.

For my purposes this has worked perfectly. The only thing I was worried about was paladins double-dipping in Charisma, but in practice it hasn't mattered at low level or at medium levels. The magic using classes are now overtaking even the paladin in Will saves because of the higher base save.

It also reduces cleric power slightly, which I'm happy with.

Cheers

 

[kirinke]

lol. well. i see

willpower is basically resisting things right? make it a combination of constitution and charisma (force of personality)