A Rant about Wisdom

[The Sigil]

Let's face it, real willpower has more to do with force of personality, thus Charisma, rather than Wisdom. Wisdom is simply the ability to make use of knowledge, or better yet Common Sense.

Simple answer:

In previous editions of D&D, Wisdom was defined "as the ability to make use of Knowledge."

In 3e, Wisdom was re-defined to include both "the ability to make use of Knowledge" and "force of Will."

It was mentioned earlier on this thread, but it bears repeating...

Intelligence = raw ability to process, sort, and comprehend data (which is why it drives Skill Points - simple aggregation of knowledge)

Wisdom = ability to draw conclusions from data AND ability to project one's desires upon oneself (represented in it being the basis for Will Saves - which represent mastery of self)

Charisma = ability to project one's desires upon others/the world around you (which is why it is tied to a sorcerer's "intuitive" spellcasting ability - his ability to shape the world at large - but NOT a wizard's spellcasting ability, which relies instead upon knowledge of rote gestures and incantations)

To extend your cigarette example:

1.) A high-INT, low-WIS person knows smoking is bad for his health, but cannot bring himself to stop smoking.
2.) A high-INT, high-WIS person knows smoking is bad for his health, and has the gumption to quit.
3.) A high-INT, low-CHA person knows smoking is bad for his health, but cannot convince smokers to stop because he is constantly picking the wrong arguments or attacking them ad hominim.
4.) A high-INT, high-CHA person knows smoking is bad for his health, and can convince smokers to stop because he is so persuasive.
5.) A high-INT, low-WIS, high-CHA person knows smoking is bad for his health, and can convince smokers to stop because he is so persuasive, but he himself is a chain smoker on the side and can't bring himself to break his habit.

Does that help visualize things. CHA represents how well you can "Control" other people, while WIS represents how well you can "control" yourself. I know a lot of people who are great at leading others to "do good" but can't stop their own self-destructive tendencies. Whether you like him or not, Rush Limbaugh is, I think, a perfect example of a high-CHA, low-WIS person who's great at giving advice to other people, but bad at following that advice himself.

--The Sigil

 

[Tonguez]

My 2p.

INT = The ability to gather and process raw information (eg search skill - methodically scanning an area to find out as much as possible)
WIS = The ability to process raw information into useful information (eg spot skill - the ability to quickly pick out something important in what you see)
CHA = The ability to present information to others in the form you desire (eg Bluff skill - attempt to build up a lie (false information) vs Sense Motive(WIS) picking up on inconsistencies in what you say (or perhaps how you say it))

Why is a will save based off wisdom? Because generally speaking will saves are versus an effect that attempts to alter how you see the world.

(Vampire uses its charm ability. The mind of the target is fed new information that the vampire is their friend. INT doesn't do anything with this - you already know the vampire's your friend and there isn't much else to deduce from that. CHA might come into it later when you try to convince your friends not to attack your good friend the count. WIS on the other hand tries to process the information, picking up on the fairly important detail that the vampire is in fact NOT your friend, hence will save = WIS)

I like this definition - so Will is your Awareness that something isn't 'right', hmmm

 

[A'koss]

Here's a definition I've always liked for Wisdom: The use of the best means for attaining the best ends. Prudence is the virtue by which we select right means for given ends, while wisdom implies the selection of right ends as well as the right means.

As for D&D, you might as well call Wisdom - Willpower. They are not wise people per se, just possessing a lot of mental fortitude. Someone who was both very powerful and very wise would be dangerous indeed, and doubly so if he were very intelligent as well. That person would be very capable in turning his goals into reality. He would know what pitfalls to avoid that would foil lesser men. He would find solutions around obstacles that others would never consider.

Unfortunately it's pretty hard to roleplay people who are wiser than yourself, it's a whole lot easier to file Wisdom under Willpower and be done with it.

A'koss.

 

[billd91]

The way I see Charisma and Wisdom in 3E, Wisdom is to Charisma as Constitution is to Strength. Con and Str both deal with the power of a character's body: the power to resist passively and the power to exert actively, respectively. Wisdom and Charisma are the same thing, but for personality and will: the power to resist passively and the power to exert actively, respectively.

That's why Con and Wis work for saving throws in ways that Str and Cha would not.

 

[BryonD]

STR and CHR === Ability to impose change on your surroundings and others
DEX and INT === Ability to interact quickly and accurately with your surroundings and others
CON and WIS === Ability to resist change imposed from your surroundings and others

 

[Li Shenron]

I think it makes sense - I think the force of personality represented by Charisma is that which you wield over OTHER people and Wisdom is force of personality over YOURSELF.

You could have all the personal willpower in the world - don't drink, don't smoke, don't drink squishees - but still not have any leadership whatsoever.

I agree with you.

Charisma has something to do with the interaction with someone else (ok, there are classes with cha-based special abilities that have nothing to do with this, but...). Willpower is about oneself only, and not about influencing others.

I used to tell new players joining our game that Wisdom=Input, Intelligence=Processing and Charisma=Output, but that's kind of a joke

 

[Bauglir]

I like this definition - so Will is your Awareness that something isn't 'right', hmmm

I'd go a bit further than that. A high int character will know a lot of things but they won't necessarily know what to do with that knowledge. WIS takes that knowledge and uses it as a basis to make good decisions.

Eg - The low level character meets a squadron of orcs moving in perfect formation in a 10x10 square.

INT tells him hmm 10x10 that's 100 orcs! Maybe 40 of those will be carrying bows but the rest are likely to be using greataxes, given orcish military history etc etc

WIS then takes that info and tells him "100 Orcs? Run away! Run away!"

 

[hong]

"Inscrutable are the ways of the enlightened" -- saying that appeared in our campaign, after some inexplicable acts by a Wis 28 character played by an Int 8 player

 

[Altalazar]

"Inscrutable are the ways of the enlightened" -- saying that appeared in our campaign, after some inexplicable acts by a Wis 28 character played by an Int 8 player

Ah, this brings me back to the ole' "Make a Wisdom Check" - from way back in 1E, whenever a character would do something really dumb, or ALMOST do something really dumb or miss something obvious, this one DM would say "Make a Wisdom Check (on a d20, roll =< Wis) and if the roll was made, he'd point out something dumb the Character missed. Usually it was for REALLY stupid things.

 

[shilsen]

The way I see Charisma and Wisdom in 3E, Wisdom is to Charisma as Constitution is to Strength. Con and Str both deal with the power of a character's body: the power to resist passively and the power to exert actively, respectively. Wisdom and Charisma are the same thing, but for personality and will: the power to resist passively and the power to exert actively, respectively.

That's why Con and Wis work for saving throws in ways that Str and Cha would not.

Nice definition. That's pretty close to how I see it.