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A reason why 4E is not as popular as it could have been

I hope you are right about that 1Mac, but it takes a lot less than that to start an edition war in the forums.

As far as more stuff for 4E to make it more popular, perhaps bring back some of the other settings that people used to play in and love. Ala Ravenloft as not only a board game, but as an actual campaign setting. A few others off the top of my head would be Dragonlance, the Oriental adventures settings, and the Arabian setting. I remember back in the day when I played AD&D 2E and loved those settings along with my old staple of FR.

I know we can always home-brew stuff, but bringing back the classic old settings and worlds would be pretty sweet without having to convert them over from the older editions.
 

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Nebten

First Post
images


I do agree with a new 4th ed orginal campaign setting. Sadly with FR and DS, the books were so skimpy that many people went back to previous edition to put some meat on those bones. While the argument out there is that WotC didn't plan out every detail so the DM could do it is fine, but some settings have a certain feel to them. For a DM to obtain that "feeling" other sources of information would be useful. In my observation, in FR games I've been in, the DM has a stack AD&D campaign suppliments next to him. For a DS game I'm currently in, the DM went through my old box set and re-read the novels.

One (of many) hang ups is that we maybe trying to shoe-horn old memories into new mechanics.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
I don't think a setting has anything to do with why many 3.5 fans failed to embrace 4E.

However, I *do* think a 4E based setting would have helped keep 4E players more interested.

What they should have done is another setting search. That was fun! :D
 

Greg K

Legend
While I am currently DMing a 4E game and love that it is much easier on the DM than 3E/3.5, I also don't like that they sacrificed a lot of the sacred cows from 30 years of prior editions - alignment, Vancian magic, etc

It is going to depend on individual groups and players. Among the people I know, the above was not an issue for staying away. Many of the sacred cows
being removed was viewed as a good thing.
- and, also made some monster abilities less immediately deadly (i.e., the Medusa is you get hit and you're slowed; first failed save you're immobilized, then finally on the second failed save, you're petrified...) I'm also not sure how much I like the concept of X number of healing surges per day

The SSSOD for the Medusa is getting into the things that kept all, but a couple of people I know.
Other things include:
a. over consolidation of skills (in our opinion)
b. the removal of skill points
c. a lot of the exception based design elements that come across as completely gamist (e.g., The Warden's con bonus to AC or a certain style using Con bonus to hit, etc.)
d. hit points becoming more abstract
e. prestige classes and epic destinies needed to play above in those tiers
f. Things like CAGI
g. different martial classes having different powers to represent similar things (e.g, two weapon fighting) and other martial classes having to wait for appropriate powers to represent fighting styles

and, now with essentials
e. magic missile going back to no hit roll
f. save for half damage
g. some of the classes
 
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Dannager

First Post
- Indigestible rules bulk even at 1st level
Huh, that's actually one of the reasons I switched to 4e; teaching new players the 3.5 rules right out of the gate was becoming a pain. Teaching the 4e rules, on the other hand, was very straightforward.

I don't think that this is really a supportable position for one to take. If the 4e rules were indigestible at low levels, the 3.5 rules (and, by extension, Pathfinder rules) must be seen as downright unpalatable.
 

Diamond Cross

Banned
Banned
And also not abandoned 3.5e so soon after the release.

Despite the flood of material from other producers. there should be more than just a couple of years of support for each edition.

Changing things so soon only encourages the pressure to buy things just to have it to complete a set because it's trendy to do the new and shiny thing.

And at those prices it's pretty expensive to keep buying books.
 

Greg K

Legend
Huh, that's actually one of the reasons I switched to 4e; teaching new players the 3.5 rules right out of the gate was becoming a pain. Teaching the 4e rules, on the other hand, was very straightforward.

I don't know. Outside of magic, 3.5 is pretty easy to teach. The player describes what they want to do (e.g, attack, bullrush, disarm, dodge) and the DM can apply the appropriate maneuver. Since there are no powers, the DM does not have to worry how one class fights two handed vs. how another does it.
 

Stormonu

Legend
I don't think *not* having a default setting beyond the nebulous Nentir Vale has hurt 4E (I bought Pathfinder but have not interest in Golarion as a comparison), but I would think that a strong setting would have helped it.

Still, part of the reason many folks choose D&D in the first place is to make their own stuff up - including their own game world. Or at least, that was one of my reasons.

And WotC's had plenty of chances to hit gold with a 4E campaign setting already - FR, Eberron & Dark Sun. If they haven't "been a success" already (and from posts its sound like all but FR were well-accepted), I doubt WotC's going to have much luck with the next world they put out - original or relaunch.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
1. You cannot sell over 80 hardcover books to people in the space of six years -- then come right on back to the same market -- and try to sell them similar books (often titled the same), which are incompatible with the 80+ books you just sold. You can try it – but you should not be surprised when a large number of them say “no, and HELL no.” Those fans now believe that you are doing to do it to them again in about four to five years, too.

2. The game was released too early for a large segment of the existing customer base. That is not a mere "opinion"; based upon the market results -- it is clearly an objective fact. By releasing 4th ed too early, WotC created an opening that a well positioned competitor could take advantage of using the OGL against Wizards.

3. It gets worse when your first announced plan for the new edition involves cancelling the print edition of Dungeon and Dragon magazine. You just antagonized the hell out a large segment of your existing hardcore customer base with that announcement and the game isn't due out for a year.

4. Matters aren’t improved when the company you licensed to publish Dungeon and Dragon magazine, who by virtue of their monthly columns, quality product and prominent participation on the community message forums at both ENWorld and Paizo.com, developed a closer and more personable relationship with fans than WotC's own employees and designers did. WotC didn’t (and still does not) make those same efforts to cultivate their customers’ goodwill to the degree that Paizo does. That is an objective fact.

We can argue over the why later -- but the facts are real. This is the largest fan site for D&D on the internet. I have not seen the current brand manager for D&D post here. Not even once. Not even after we called her out on it.

In contrast, Lisa Stevens, Erik Mona, James Jacobs, and Jason Bulmahn ALL post on ENWorld regularly. They make themselves accessible to their fans as a corporate priority. It's even in the job description that Paizo puts on their website. It matters to them.

5. When the GSL essentially deep-sixed third party product support for 4th edition? Things went from bad to worse, very quickly. Suddenly, 3rd Edition went from an over-supported game with a glut of products on the market -- to a 4th edition which was a poorly supported game in terms of adventures and setting material. This transformation occurred essentially overnight, I might add.

6. When the company that was previously publishing Dungeon and Dragon – and who as official licenses had significant credibility as “real owners of D&D”, leveraged their customers’ goodwill and came out with a product that DID NOT wipe out the usefulness of those 80+ hardcover books? That was going to inevitably split the market, no matter what WotC did or would do.

Based on the above six factors, 4th edition could have been the greatest and best designed role-playing game of all time. It didn’t matter. There were too many missteps on the marketing front before the thing had even been released. WotC hobbled the brand out of the gate with poor decisions at a management level.

You will note I have not yet even talked about the changes to the underlying game. As it happened, the changes were perceived by SOME fans of prior editions of D&D as being too sharp a break with the traditions of the game. In and of itself, this might not have turned into a huge issue had the third parties come on board and had Paizo not moved from being their largest accessory publisher to their biggest competitor.

But that didn’t happen. When the design differences of the game are added to the six reasons numerated above, WotC found it had lost a third -- and now going on about one-half of its customers from the 3rd edition era.

If I lost half my clients? I’d be fired on the spot. And I’d deserve it, too.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
To put it another way, this is another factor among a few core ones that I think has crippled 4E from early on.

The reason nobody brings this up as a potential factor in 4Ed's popularity or lack thereof is simple: I don't think most non-adopters see it as a factor at all. (It wasn't for me, anyway.)

We've been pretty clear about our likes and dislikes Re: 4Ed (see above)- and if setting support had been a meaningful factor, I'm certain someone would have mentioned it at some point in the edition wars.
 
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