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A short guide to the Essential Thief's movement tricks

Prestidigitalis

First Post
Generally speaking, a balanced encounter will either have minions involved, or the number of monsters won't outnumber the party. Maybe one or two extra monsters at most.

So a scenario where the rogue is surrounded and only the fighter is anywhere around is a bit of a loaded scenario. Other party members do have some stuff to contribute, not just damage, but means of making it a bit harder for the party to surround one of their allies. Now, I do have some players who play strikers that charge in and get surrounded before the rest of the party can catch up, but that's more a lack of strategy/forethought than anything else.

Your list of people with worse AC sort of ignores a few factors ... A warlock doesn't use Int as his attack stat. So he can be in line with a rogue if he goes 18/18 and the Rogue doesn't go with 20 Dex. A rogue, especially a thief, has very little to lose if going with 20 Dex. The Cha/Str based tricks aren't too powerful, while Dex doesn't just improve AC, but also attack rolls and damage. A melee ranger gets hide (as does a barbarian), but they still need to put points into dex (16 and 14 respectively) to be on par with a rogue, which means taking away from their secondary stat (Wis, Con/Cha respectively, not counting the dual wielding barbarian). For shieldless classes, Rogue's AC is quite good, especially if the difference between a defender (who have the best AC in the game with a shield) is that the defender has an extra 2 points of AC from their heavy shield (or equivalent).

The rogue has mobility. While being stuck in the situation may hurt, if the rogue survives he can get out of it on the following turn. And on that turn he can yell at the leader, the controler, and any other players at the table for letting the rogue and the fighter take on the entire mass of melee baddies on their own. With the various tricks, the rogue can get in and out of flanks (escape artist even allows it on the same turn, and a number of tricks make flanking unneccesary). As such, the rogue can position itself close enough to the fighter to benefit from marking/aura, although it also requires the fighter get himself into good positioning as well. Any other allies in melee should hopefully do their job and make it a little more difficult for any one member of the party to be swarmed by minions or every monster on the field.

Good explanation. I haven't seen too many characters with 20/14/11 (or whatever) builds, and none as Rogues. I guess I play with people who prefer balanced characters, and use that as a baseline.

One thing that I was aware of but left out of my own comments is that even when surrounded, higher level Thiefs have a number of utility powers to either avoid the damage completely or minimize it, and in some cases to duck away afterwards.

Probably the biggest reason for my perspective is that the various tricks allow a Thief to get CA quite easily without flanking, and therefore at range, so for the most part I had in mind a ranged-primary Thief.
 

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Acrobat's Trick:

All correct. It's great for utility and extra damage. All it lacks is a decent way of gaining combat advantage - therefore it makes a superb second trick. But CA is massively important.

Tactical Trick:

Superb. Spot on. The easiest way to gain combat advantage for focus fire. And it allows you to cut through complicated melees. Probably the best trick for combat - but can feel like easy mode.

Ambush Trick:

Is nothing compared to tactical trick. No movement benefit and actively encourages you to not focus fire. Don't bother with this.

Escape Artist's Trick:

Useful and versatile - but alas eclipsed by Tactical Trick or the shift two for flanking and then shift back to your own lines would be wonderful. You don't really need this if you have tactical trick (or vise-versa).

Sneak's Trick:

This is a utility power. Are you always getting CA and playing a sneak-heavy game? If so it's nice. If not, get something that allows you CA or has combat potential.

*** The dividing line. You get 5 tricks total, so unless you have a niche build, I don't see why you would take the options listed below.

For one thing, Ambush Trick doesn't belong above the line unless you're trying to solo.

Tumbling Trick:

You miss the point of this trick - and you only need a STR of 12 to use it properly. The point isn't that strength modifier damage is a lot. It's that you can do a full MBA to your primary foe and shank a minion in passing. It's good if your DM uses a lot of minions and pointless if he doesn't or you have a wizard or invoker that specialises in wiping them out.

Unbalancing Trick:

Shift 2 is seriously nice for setting up flanking. And it ensures that your foe can not get away or out of the flank most of the time as they use their move action to stand up. Also helps focus fire by giving melee allies CA (other than your flanking partner). Very good for mangling controllers and artillery who don't want to be in melee.

Thug's Trick:

Initially I thought this sucked - but the more I think about it the more I like it. Any monster with any sense flanked by a rogue is going to try and escape the flank because Sneak Attack is a killer. (Yes, they are going to shift in the rogue's direction, but that's another issue). Normal way of escaping a flank is to shift - at which point you OA them while they are still flanked for full basic + sneak attack damage - i.e. as much as you did on your own turn. This makes the damage from Ambush Trick seem entirely irrelevant by comparison. And it utterly screws certain annoying monsters like skirmishers or kobolds.

Feinting Trick:

Sucks. Simple as that. Sucks badly enough that it needs errata to become useful (I'd give it Sneak Attack damage in addition to charisma modifier damage if you don't have combat advantage - and it would still be a poor choice even if you wanted to solo (charisma modifier to damage not measuring up to +2 to hit (Combat advantage) and +1 damage/tier (Light Blade Expertise with combat advantage) for Ambush Trick) unless for some bizarre reason you wanted to play a sniper.

I suspect that over the long term, the big argument over these tricks will always be Tactical vs. Ambush.

Tactical every time. Tactical encourages you to focus fire. Ambush encourages you to spread the damage around.

Ranged Thiefs who love flitting in and out of shadows might place Escape Artist's Trick or Sneak's Trick higher in the list.

Sneak's is superb for ranged thieves. And will largely cover the few uses of Ambush Trick.

I find it interesting that all of the tricks are oriented toward a Move First, Attack Second turn. I'd like to see them add a trick that works best when you Attack First, Move Second.

Me too (arguably Escape Artist's). Probably would be defensive in nature.

And it's worth remembering that melee characters who take their share of lumps contribute much more to the team than ranged plinkers. Even Knights and wardens go down under focus fire as much as monsters do. If you're on the battle line you're preventing the monsters focus their fire as easily.
 

Psikus

Explorer
I'd like to add a few random comments:

- Not much has been said about how the tricks interact with charging. Unlike rogues of old, thieves do not need to give up their fancy powers in order to charge - rather, they get the full benefits of their tricks, plus a free +1 to the attack roll. Because of this, the value of any power that allows charging easily should be increased accordingly. Case in point: the tricks that let you shift 2+ squares (Tumbling Trick, Escape Artist Trick, and Unbalancing Trick) can be used to charge almost every turn, even when you are already in melee. Likewise, Sneak's Trick to hide and immediately charge could be a useful maneuver.

You'd also have to consider the potential for charge-specialized builds. Surprising Charge is awesome there, as are Horned Helms and several other items of questionable balance. But that is a different story...

- The value of knocking prone (i.e. Unbalancing Trick) increases a lot when you can shift after the attack, push the target, or daze it. The first two ideas aren't trivial to implement, but the last one is. Last month's Dragon included thief-specific feats for staff-users, including one that adds a free daze on every backstab performed with a quarterstaff (don't ask). It is a niche build, but one where the trick will really shine.

- Thug's Trick is VERY handy against skirmishers and other foes able to shift and move, or shift multiple squares. Not all defenders can really punish shifting, and some times you even need to flank with somebody other than a defender. Also, it's one of the few tricks that works with non-basic attacks, which is something to keep in mind if you are trying to exploit Riposte Strike (with a Human) or any other strange combo.

- I think players should be looking for a balanced selection. Having tricks that let you move long distances as well as tricks that let you shift should be a high priority - otherwise you'll find yourself stuck with awesome tricks that you can't use some turns when you really need to shift, or to cover a distance. Tactical Trick almost counts as both categories, but be aware that sometimes it won't let you shift from a position when you really need to (like being flanked with no allies nearby).
 

Prestidigitalis

First Post
I'd like to add a few random comments:

- Not much has been said about how the tricks interact with charging. Unlike rogues of old, thieves do not need to give up their fancy powers in order to charge - rather, they get the full benefits of their tricks, plus a free +1 to the attack roll. Because of this, the value of any power that allows charging easily should be increased accordingly. Case in point: the tricks that let you shift 2+ squares (Tumbling Trick, Escape Artist Trick, and Unbalancing Trick) can be used to charge almost every turn, even when you are already in melee. Likewise, Sneak's Trick to hide and immediately charge could be a useful maneuver.

That's a really good point. Escape Artist's Trick could be great for charging. Shift back to charge, charge (hopefully into a flank) and then shift back into a safer location. Throw in one of the feats that lets you increase the distance of a shift and it could be quite effective.

You'd also have to consider the potential for charge-specialized builds. Surprising Charge is awesome there, as are Horned Helms and several other items of questionable balance. But that is a different story...

I never care much for one-trick-pony builds like chargers, but in this case the Thief tricks make it much more versatile. It could become amazing pretty quickly. But it's true, there are serious balance issues there, and we could see some big nerfs in the future.


- The value of knocking prone (i.e. Unbalancing Trick) increases a lot when you can shift after the attack, push the target, or daze it. The first two ideas aren't trivial to implement, but the last one is. Last month's Dragon included thief-specific feats for staff-users, including one that adds a free daze on every backstab performed with a quarterstaff (don't ask). It is a niche build, but one where the trick will really shine.

I didn't include Dragon material because I have yet to play with a DM who allows it at the table. Now, if a different party member could pile on the additional effects, that would be something.


- Thug's Trick is VERY handy against skirmishers and other foes able to shift and move, or shift multiple squares. Not all defenders can really punish shifting, and some times you even need to flank with somebody other than a defender. Also, it's one of the few tricks that works with non-basic attacks, which is something to keep in mind if you are trying to exploit Riposte Strike (with a Human) or any other strange combo.

Yeah, I can see that. If your defender(s) don't punish shifting, it could make a big difference.

Ambush, Escape Artist's, Sneak's and Tactical all work with non-basic attacks too, but none of those have a specific add-on effect -- just movement or CA granting.

- I think players should be looking for a balanced selection. Having tricks that let you move long distances as well as tricks that let you shift should be a high priority - otherwise you'll find yourself stuck with awesome tricks that you can't use some turns when you really need to shift, or to cover a distance. Tactical Trick almost counts as both categories, but be aware that sometimes it won't let you shift from a position when you really need to (like being flanked with no allies nearby).

It's a good thing you get 5 of them, isn't it?

I don't want to change my original post -- it would make it too hard to follow the comments -- but based on feedback I would reorder my list like this:

Acrobat's Trick
Tactical Trick
Escape Artist's Trick
Sneak's Trick
Thug's Trick
Tumbling Trick
Ambush Trick
Unbalancing Trick
Feinting Trick

Of course, what is really needed is trick "packages" that synergize well. That would take a lot more thought.

BTW -- if anyone is still reading this thread -- is it reasonable to think that Rogue's Tricks can be retrained?
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
Is nothing compared to tactical trick. No movement benefit and actively encourages you to not focus fire. Don't bother with this.
Why does it discourage focus fire? the restriction is about the allies of the enemies, not the allies of the thief.
 
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Prestidigitalis

First Post
Why does it discourage focus fire? the restriction is about the allies of the enemies, not the allies of the thief.

I'm not sure what Neonchameleon's reasons were, but I can think of several. Note that they are all probabilistic -- there is no guarantee that any of them will apply in a specific situation.

1. Many, if not most, encounters seem to end up with a pileup in the center, as enemies gang up on your defenders. The defenders target those enemies, hopefully one at a time, in sequence. Because the enemies frequently approach from the same direction, they often end up next to each other, and then they kind of stay there due to the stickiness of the defenders. So at a minimum, you will be discouraged from targetting the same enemies that your defenders are.

2. Controllers like to herd enemies together to more effectively blast them. They, and tactically minded allies, will be pushpullsliding the enemies into a huddle when they can. Those creatures will be getting burst/blast fire preferentially, but you won't be able to use Ambush Trick against the.

3. Some creatures, such as hobgoblins, just naturally congregate in order to bolster their own effectiveness. You might have a hard time finding a straggler anywhere on the table.

Truthfully though, more and more I am looking at the big downsides of Ambush Trick being the range limitation of 5 squares to get CA, and the lack of an interesting move option.
 
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