A Spell Burn Mod

[BryonD]

I think I have decided on an easy "fix" for my issues with spell burn.
In place of STR, magical aptitude will cause spell burn to do WIS damage.
I think these has several cool effects.

For one, I have always viewed WIS as a form of mental CON.
So, once you learn to "control" magic, you can prevent it from feeding on your body, but instead it feeds on your mind.
It also gets away from wizards pumping iron to get better at magic.

And, it does really cool things with arcane vs divine magic.
A wizard or wild mage will simply become temporarily insane if they do to much magic. Right up until they burn out and crash.
A divine mage however, will have his "faith" or spiritual power or whatever drained and simply lose the ability to cast spells, thus losing the ability to do further harm to himself.
They start with more WIS, but need it just to cast spells. So once their sanity gets down to "normal" human levels, they stop casting. Of course if they mess around with powerful magics and roll badly, then they can still get blasted. Which is again cool (at least to me).

Anyway, I like it.

Also:
I'm going to add a Feat:
Versatile Magic:
Prereq: Magical Aptitude Talent
Benefit: You may spend an action point to modify the way a spell functions. For example a burst spell could be cast as a line spell, or a 3d6 fireball could persist for 3 rounds at 1d6 per round, or could make a sword flaming for the next 6 hits, etc... It can not reproduce metamagic feats.

Anyway, that gives me the flexible magic that I find fairly common in literature, where spells tend to have more adaptable effects.
It also steals a good page from Mutants and Masterminds.

What do you think?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What do you think?

Well, since you asked... I think it's too harsh on spellcasters.

For an arcane spellcaster, you could make the argument that they can afford to spend down WIS just as easily as they can spend down STR. However, my personal anecdotal experience is that WIS (and the Willpower save) is more important to a caster than Strength.

It's even worse for divine spellcasters-- to the point of unplayable. A very high starting stat in WIS would be 16. By the time they're really casting spells, it might be 18.

This means that the divine caster has 8 points to play with before he lacks the WIS to cast spells. He's probably got more points of STR to play with.


Wulf

 

[BryonD]

Well, since you asked... I think it's too harsh on spellcasters.

For an arcane spellcaster, you could make the argument that they can afford to spend down WIS just as easily as they can spend down STR. However, my personal anecdotal experience is that WIS (and the Willpower save) is more important to a caster than Strength.

I agree that WIS is more important. However, the other side of your point is that the caster will not be forced to "waste" a high ability on STR just to have enough pseudo mana points.
I'd prefer to worry about keeping my WIS up than start with it low because I needed a high STR.

It's even worse for divine spellcasters-- to the point of unplayable. A very high starting stat in WIS would be 16. By the time they're really casting spells, it might be 18.

This means that the divine caster has 8 points to play with before he lacks the WIS to cast spells. He's probably got more points of STR to play with.


Wulf

8 points with 4 points of burn resistance gives an average of 12 spell levels cast before you would expect to be down to WIS 10. So I guess it just depends on how low you want the magic to be.
They also gain the advantage of being able to focus on one ability score.

If he starts with 12 STR and loses 8 points, he is largely incapacitated (compared to no major handicap for being "down" to 10 WIS). If he starts with much higher than 12 STR you quickly get into the "why do all priests look like Arnold?" thing.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If he starts with much higher than 12 STR you quickly get into the "why do all priests look like Arnold?" thing.

Well, I know that's a sticking point for some folks. I guess I take a larger view of the STR attribute than just muscles; just as the CHA attribute is more than just good looks.

Ultimately I disagree with an approach that encourages a character to ignore any attribute in favor of another. For most spellcasters in your system, I suspect you'll create a dump stat in STR.

I think a better approach, if you want to play around with it (which, of course, if fine), is to key the spell burn to the school of magic being cast. If Evocations always burn STR, for example, then you have a better rationale for a "beefy" caster, and so on down the line for different archetypical spellcasters from different schools-- dextrous transmuters, charismatic enchanters, wise diviners, etc.

Wulf

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

What about making the stat loss random? As in for some spell might sap the strength this casting but the next casting might put a drain mentally (Int loss).

 

[BryonD]

Well, I know that's a sticking point for some folks. I guess I take a larger view of the STR attribute than just muscles; just as the CHA attribute is more than just good looks.

Not sure I really follow that. It is pretty well accepted that you can have an ugly character with a high force of personality. For example, Tyrion in A Song of Ice and Fire. And when Tyrion got even uglier, his force of personality did not suffer.

But STR always measures how much weight you can lift and how hard you can hit. Even if you throw in an abstract extra interpretation of STR, that view must still be tied to how much the guy can lift. So physical strenght and your abstract mana points are connected in a way that Tyrions looks and charisma are not.

Ultimately I disagree with an approach that encourages a character to ignore any attribute in favor of another. For most spellcasters in your system, I suspect you'll create a dump stat in STR.

I am certain I will cause STR to be a dump stat.
STR has always been a dump stat for wizards.
Except in GURPS, where you end up with a lot of Arnold wizards.
I have always found dump stats to be a minor problem, whereas Multiple Ability requirements can be a larger problem.

I also think you are overrating the differences between this change and the core system.

I think a better approach, if you want to play around with it (which, of course, if fine), is to key the spell burn to the school of magic being cast. If Evocations always burn STR, for example, then you have a better rationale for a "beefy" caster, and so on down the line for different archetypical spellcasters from different schools-- dextrous transmuters, charismatic enchanters, wise diviners, etc.

Wulf

I guess that would be ok. Of course, we just saw that with 3E psionics, and it ended up being tossed because enough people did not care for how it worked out.

No big deal. Interesting to see the difference in viewpoint.

 

[BryonD]

What about making the stat loss random? As in for some spell might sap the strength this casting but the next casting might put a drain mentally (Int loss).

Depends on the kind of game I was running.
I can think of some ways that this would be a lot of fun.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A lot of it also depends on how you generate ability scores.

Personally, for Grim Tales, I prefer the array: 15,14,13,12,10,8.

With such a low variance between the major grouping of stats, I think concerns about "Arnold" wizards are largely unfounded.

If the character has a 15 Int and a 14 Str, and his next stat is a 13, that hardly puts him in the Arnold mold. In my experience, in fact, one wouldn't use the 14 for Str, possibly even dropping down to the 13 or the 12, simply because there is a greater benefit to the 14 (and having that +2 mod in the right place) than an extra point or two of Str to fuel spells.

On the other hand, if you're still using 4d6 drop lowest (which frankly generates scores too high for a good grim game) you're more likely to see Arnold syndrome, because there will be higher scores across the board, as well as a greater likelihood of having two stand-out stats that make the choice between the 2nd and 3rd highest stat much more distinct.

Don't talk to me about average probabilities with 4d6. Players consistently roll higher than the antipated average with this method. Anybody who has been playing as long as you and I have, have seen this enough times not to simply discount it as anecdotal.

EDIT: Boy, the typos. Can you tell I haven't had my coffee?

Wulf

 

[BryonD]

I agree that elite is a good standard for GT.

If 15 is the very best you can start with, the 14 is pretty close to Arnold.
But that is beside the point. Call it Bruce Willis if you prefer.

Being pressured to put your spellcasters second best stat in STR is the point.

Now, if you assume that the wizard would settle for 12 then a different argument comes up.
Can we assume that before spellcasting is a significant issue, several levels must be gained and that the primary spellcasting attribute will be pushed?

So lets assume divine casters with starting Wis of 15. They are now L8 with Wis of 17.

Your way they have a STR of 12 and an 8 somewhere else. Once they take 7 points of spell burn they are down to 5 STR. Given the way D20 stats work, this can be a very minor drawback. But they are hindered in a lot of ways in that they will be restricted in moving around with more than the clothes on their back and can't really cast much more spells without taking themselves completely out of the game.

My way they have an 8 STR and put that 12 somewhere they would prefer, such as DEX or INT. Once they take 7 points of spell burn they can not cast spells any more. But, other than that, they are completely still in the fight. They are in no way feebled.

Obviously, if you take away a D&D cleric's spellcasting ability, the character has been hosed.
But GT characters have a lot more going for them than their spells. Yes, it would hurt the character to be spent like that. But he is only "out" of spells 2 or 3 spells before the STR guy would be completely out of the fight. And being completely out of the fight is worse than only being out of spells. Worst case he can run away. Better than lying there hoping to be saved.

Anyway, obviously I am not saying you are wrong about the way the default system works. The only reasonable conclusion from that would be that I am an idiot for challenging you on your system. But I think you are selling my mod a little short. I believe the casters are simply forced to pay a different but roughly equvalent price. Anyway, I still don't like buff Wizards, Arnold and Bruce don't play the wizard, Martin Short and old geezers play the wizard.

(And I agree 100% on 4d6)

Edit: maybe I should start drinking coffee

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If I understand you correctly, you have two concerns:

1) Players putting too high a priority on STR and,

2) Players "taking themselves out of the fight" and leaving themselves with nothing to do.

Your way they have a STR of 12 and an 8 somewhere else. Once they take 7 points of spell burn they are down to 5 STR. Given the way D20 stats work, this can be a very minor drawback. But they are hindered in a lot of ways in that they will be restricted in moving around with more than the clothes on their back and can't really cast much more spells without taking themselves completely out of the game.

Ah, but you'll notice a nice side effect to my method:

Spellcasters won't wear armor, and they'll abhor physical combat.

There's no arcane spell failure in Grim Tales, yet spellcasters are still unlikely to wear armor as they'd collapse under the weight of their own gear.

Why does the archetypical mage wear robes? So that he can, actually, remain quite competently in the fight all the way down 1 STR. Depending on the campaign (the frequency of other spellcasters and/or Horror), they are a lot better off with low STR than they are with low WIS.

Your method only encourages ALL spellcasters to put their lowest stat in STR (which, actually, is an acknowledgement that spellcasters suffer LESS from loss of Strength than from any other ability score). If you're truly concerned about spellcasters retaining their competency, that should be an indication that STR is an appropriate place to direct spell burn.

A spellcaster with even 7 points of STR to play with (having put an 8 in STR and burning down to 1) is still better off than a caster with 7 points of WIS to play with (17 reduced to 10, in your example). The spellcaster losing 7 points of STR feels less of an impact to his overall competency than a spellcaster losing 7 points of WIS (an assessment, admittedly, based largely on Will saves-- but it's a relevant assessment).

But GT characters have a lot more going for them than their spells. Yes, it would hurt the character to be spent like that. But he is only "out" of spells 2 or 3 spells before the STR guy would be completely out of the fight. And being completely out of the fight is worse than only being out of spells. Worst case he can run away. Better than lying there hoping to be saved.

In terms of heroic action, I disagree here. The character who pursues spellcasting has made a choice: that when the time comes, he will willingly "take himself out of the fight" in order to cast his spells. It's an important choice to allow him. The character who suffers STR burn says, "I forgo my physical body in exchange for mental strength."

"I can maybe save the day here, but you guys are gonna have to carry me out of here."

VS.

"Ok, now I pull a gun and chip in."

And a character at 0 STR is not necessarily out of the fight. He can lie there helpless and his mind is still sharp (he might even, in fact, be able to cast some spells direct from his CON). The point is, his greatest asset-- his mind-- is intact.

I think where your assessment is really breaking down is assuming that a character at 5, 3, 1, or even 0 STR (in rare cases) is "out of the fight."

One last time, hopefully without beating a dead horse:

Changing the burn stat to WIS and effectively encouraging all spellcasters to dump into an 8 STR takes away important options/decisions during character creation. In practice, all this will do is allow the (divine) spellcasters to cast from 17 to 10 WIS (instead of from 8 to 1 STR, same amount of spells) with the difference being that you gave the player a free "out" during character creation by way of a dump stat.

You also allow divine spellcasters to get double duty out of their Wisdom-- they have a higher prime spellcasting attribute, AND they can cast more spells.

I think that's poor balance.

But I think you are selling my mod a little short. I believe the casters are simply forced to pay a different but roughly equvalent price.

Where we differ is in the assessment of the price. I don't agree it's equivalent from a number of perspectives.

I don't want to discourage tinkering around under the hood, but I do think you should give the STR version a run in actual playtest before you start worrying about players buffing up their spellcasters with super strength (again, ignoring the fact that using the elite array, there is no super stat). In actual play I think you'll find STR relegated to no better than the 3rd best stat, and to call this an "Arnold" mage is to overlook wherever his 1st and 2nd best stats are applied.

One last thing to consider (again, assuming you'll actually be playing rather than just a thinking exercise) is simply not to tell your players that spellcasting is even going to be an option. Let them place their ability scores without the foreknowledge that they may someday regret being pencil-necked STR 8 geeks.

Good discussion so far-- you can count on a lot of this showing up in a Spellcasting supplement!

Wulf