A subtle reminder from wizards.(or not so subtle)

[mkill]

I've read the ultimate comment on the Essentials series over at therpgsite:

"Me, I prefer the uncompromised 4.0 philosophy of Heinsoo and Noonan."

That's when I realized I need to stop worrying about D&D and get myself laid.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Well, it seems to me that no matter how many times WotC says:

• The Essentials are NOT replacing the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual.
• The Essentials are providing a better framework and starting point for new players while also providing new options for existing players to add to their games.

Thanks for putting all our minds at ease. I feel so much better knowing this.

It extra exciting since nothing is being replaced I can look forward to the monster vault containing ALL NEW MONSTERS.

Hmm. What WILL they fill that with. What iconic monsters that newbies need to learn about are left to include that are NOT rewrites of monsters from previous products.

If we were to see things such as kobolds, goblins, and red dragons how are we NOT supposed to treat that as a replacement for the monster manual again?
​

 

[Phaezen]

If we were to see things such as kobolds, goblins, and red dragons how are we NOT supposed to treat that as a replacement for the monster manual again?
​

Swap the phrase "a replacement" with "more options". You now get a choice of which red dragon and kobolds suite the encounter/adventure/setting better. Is this really a bad thing?

Edit:
There are currently 42 variations Kobold, 45 different goblins and 12 types of Red Dragon a few more will hardly be train smash

 

[DracoSuave]

Thanks for putting all our minds at ease. I feel so much better knowing this.

It extra exciting since nothing is being replaced I can look forward to the monster vault containing ALL NEW MONSTERS.

Hmm. What WILL they fill that with. What iconic monsters that newbies need to learn about are left to include that are NOT rewrites of monsters from previous products.

If we were to see things such as kobolds, goblins, and red dragons how are we NOT supposed to treat that as a replacement for the monster manual again?
​

It never claimed to not update monsters to modern standards. The Monster Manual IS obsolete and has been since the Monster Manual 2. Essentials does present an opportunity to update them so that they fit in to today's design.

It would surprise me if they chose not to take that opportunity.

But, even if they didn't, there's nothing to say they can't come out with new kobolds, goblins, etc, that are designed using the new guidelines.

And it is a beginner product, so new kobolds are pretty much necessities, cause... well.. they're kobolds!

 

[ExploderWizard]

It never claimed to not update monsters to modern standards. The Monster Manual IS obsolete and has been since the Monster Manual 2. Essentials does present an opportunity to update them so that they fit in to today's design.

It would surprise me if they chose not to take that opportunity.

But, even if they didn't, there's nothing to say they can't come out with new kobolds, goblins, etc, that are designed using the new guidelines.

And it is a beginner product, so new kobolds are pretty much necessities, cause... well.. they're kobolds!

Certainly and rationally the truth of it I'm sure.

However this:
The Essentials are NOT replacing the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual.

Becomes crap if what you are saying is true.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

I've read the ultimate comment on the Essentials series over at therpgsite:

"Me, I prefer the uncompromised 4.0 philosophy of Heinsoo and Noonan."

Now I'm tempted to grab a bag of popcorn and head over there for some good laughs, yet I fear I don't have enough Brain Bleach for that.

 

[Imaro]

Well, it seems to me that no matter how many times WotC says:

• The Essentials consist of 10 key products that will form the baseline experience for the roleplaying game moving forward.
• The Essentials are NOT a new game or a new edition.
• The Essentials are NOT replacing the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual.
• The Essentials are providing a better framework and starting point for new players while also providing new options for existing players to add to their games.
• The Essentials products work with all other Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game products, from Player’s Handbook to new products releasing in 2011 and beyond—just like all other D&D products we release

1. Haven't some of the "10 key essentials products" been switched over to the generic D&D product line (like the Rules Compendium)? So are we still certain there will only ever be 10 products, and if so what exactly are they?

2. But is it a revised edition?

3. Of course not, essentials isn't going to break my door down and destroy my corebooks...Of course if it's considered the de-facto starting point now, instead of the 3 corebooks, it does replace them in so far as what the current and official base game is... right?

4. So is the framework of the game changing... or not? We've already seen changes in the overall (not just in a specific build) of the mage and rogue classes.

5. Yes, and 3.0 was fully compatible with 3.5... wasn't it?

 

[Kobold Boots]

So...

None of this crap means anything in the grand scheme of things so I can ignore this thread right?

KB

PS. Our group has already decided to completely ignore Essentials.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@ Imaro: You quoted the wrong part of his post... i believe you wanted to quote this part:

Or maybe they just don't believe it when WotC says:

• The Essentials consist of 10 key products that will form the baseline experience for the roleplaying game moving forward.
• The Essentials are NOT a new game or a new edition.
• The Essentials are NOT replacing the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual.
• The Essentials are providing a better framework and starting point for new players while also providing new options for existing players to add to their games.
• The Essentials products work with all other Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game products, from Player’s Handbook to new products releasing in 2011 and beyond—just like all other D&D products we release.

p.s.: @KB sometimes it is better to say nothing at all... if you think everything is crap and you will ignore it, why don´t you just do that?

 

[Aegeri]

Swap the phrase "a replacement" with "more options". You now get a choice of which red dragon and kobolds suite the encounter/adventure/setting better. Is this really a bad thing?

Why would you want to use the absolutely terrible, fundamentally and mechanically flawed solos of the original MM? This isn't a choice between an essentials done Red Dragon and one from the original MM. This is a choice between something with 2 years of updates to monsters and one that is fundamentally broken.

Noting that most heroic monsters from the original MM are in fact still okay. There are some stupid things (Bloodfire Harpies and Needlefang Drakes) but in general they are functional. New Kobolds are new options, because many MM heroic tier monsters are still perfectly viable (Dragonshield Kobolds for example).

Now when we get into the paragon and especially epic monsters - many of whom are so useless not even upgrading their damage helps - we have a problem. Most MM elites and solos are worthless after heroic tier. Orcus is arguably the biggest joke in all of 4E for an epic level end of game threat. Most regular MM high paragon and epic monsters are nowhere near competitive with an epic party (damage and power wise). Compare high level monsters from MM3 like Forsaken or Tulgar with just about anything high level (level 21+) in the original MM. Heck compare similar epic tier monsters in MM2 to MM1. MM2 creatures have better power design, so frequently all you have to do is change damage maths and bam, you're done.

I mean, what Wizards are saying about the PHB and DMG is 100% true. What they are saying about the MM just rings absolutely hollow to me. It's a fundamentally broken book, with many creatures being useless (minions, many solos, some elites) and others being so far behind the curve they aren't worthwhile using. Of course it's worth noting I feel this is only for most creatures in paragon and beyond. That's where the gaping flaws show up and those are the creatures that perform the worst.

Since the MM3 has come out I've used monsters almost exclusively from it and the MM2 (with adjusted maths). I rarely use creatures from the original MM after heroic tier at all and I never touch the solos in the book.