"A ten-foot wide hallway stretches thirty feet and then . . ."

[Templetroll]

Way back we had one game where we entered a magical tunnel on a quest for our lord. Partway through, for some reason that I cannot recall we decided to turn around and head back out. I think it was goofball idea about getting some supplies that someone though would be useful.

This tunnel was straight and wide and no doors or turnoffs. As soon as the party was turned around the GM described to us an intersection... We thought this was odd but decided to explore it by turning this way or that, at random. We made about 4 turns and then decided to go back and map from the 'beginning'. After 6 or 7 turns we realized we were well into a dungeon and would not find the tunnel. We began mapping at that point. Mapping for 6 months of real time playing almost every weekend for a few hours. The best thing that happened to us was when we got caught in a trap... It was a time trap. The first person down this one hallway seemed to go slower and slower, but always stayed ahead ot those behind them no matter how fast they tried to move up to them. We determined that this must be a way out otherwise it would not be protected so! After a week of travel like this.... yes, we were a stubborn group.... we decided to use our ring of djinn summoning to get some food. Djinn shows up in a bad mood, "It's about time you called me!" Seems we had been travelling for so long in game time that there had been a thing called 'the heat death of the universe." this time trap kept the part of the dungeon we were in AND the small section of the Elemental Plane of Air that was keeping our djinn around despite the destruction of everything else! I found that rather cool, even as it was annoying.

The DM had the magic tunnel setup to be a maze on our return trip! he never expected it to be as arduous as it turned out to be. Moral of the tale: Map early, map often.

My other tale about mapping is that the maps I draw are 'accurate according to graph theory" as the above GM described it. That seems to mean that one can discern the rooms and corridors and where they connect but it is with lack of detail, as if actually scribbled while walking along. I wasn't roleplaying this, that is just how I draw maps when I'm playing. In the one game we went through every single room and had it mapped out! We still could not find what we were looking for. Finally, I missed a game so my wife took my character sheet and map to the game with her. This seems to have been the first time that any of the other players at the game had actually looked at the map!

What happened was, when I got near the edge of the page I folded it over and started mapping on the other side. If I found a section connected elsewhere on the original side I made a fold and drew the connection! The party decided to spend about an hour follwing my map to make a good map that showed rooms, corridors and proper dimensions and alignments. Well, lo and behold! what I had as a long curving corridor with rooms to the one side turned out to be a CIRCLE! seems there was a room that we never knew of thanks to the way I mapped.

The party found a secret door, went in, kicked butt, go the widget, we all went home.

They never let me map again.

 

[Umbran]

I guess this is where we differ. I personally want players to do some legwork before I give all the information. Simply guesstimated distances are haphazard at best. If you don't believe me, send a set of random people (not architects or engineers) to a city park they're never been to. First, have them write down the appropriate size and shape of the grass in each section. Now have them run the perimeter and guess the distance. Do this several times and compare the numbers. I'm positive some numbers will be very close and others will be completely wrong.

I am obviously not being clear. I'll try again.

It is not about the characters having accurate numbers. The numbers are only the way to get the information the characters do have to the players.

Again - the character doesn't know from "hit points", but he does know how he feels, and how much further he can go without dropping. The mechanism to communicate that is a number that the player knows. Map distances are similar.

If I give you a baseball, you don't need to know the number of feet between yourself and home plate to know whether you'll reach it. Even if you don't know the numbers, you know the distance relative to your abilities (which is the real issue for the game).

But, the player isn't in the goblin filled cavern, and he isn't his character. What he does know is how many feet the fighter can throw an axe. So, to simulate the character knowledge, the player either needs the numbers, or has to keep asking you questions, because you haven't given him what he needs to know to make reasonable decisions for his character.

 

[Morrow]

As a player, I can't really be bothered to map. If someone else in the party wants to do it, good for them. I'll make sure they get an extra slice of pizza.

As a DM, the thing that gets me is describing the dungeon, whether anyone is mapping it or not. Flavor text isn't the problem, it's describing all of the twists and turns in a way that makes sense and isn't boring.

Morrow

 

[Digital M@]

I don't see a point with mapping out a dungeon. If the players want to go back to a specific spot on a map, I just let them, or if it is a maze, they make int checks. I mean, IRL, you note where you go by how it looks and memory, and in a game, you don't have that ability, you can only go by descriptions which are lacking in details in all five senses.

 

[The Hound]

In the old days, miniatures weren't very widely used (I can remember using 10 army Risk pieces to represent player positions in the first games I played in), so the only way to play the game was for the GM to describe what the player saw, with an occasional drawing on scrap paper for the hard to describe stuff. Nowadays practically everyone uses miniatures on some sort of erasable base (or 3D dungeon models if they want to get fancy). BUT...

I still consider it good form for the GM to draw only the section of dungeon thatthe players are seeing right now, and to make them either draw a map or rely on their own observation and memory if they want to keep track of where they've been and how to get back. I will redraw dungeon rooms for them, but will not tell them which door they must use to retrace their steps back out again. As a former spelunker and explorer of abandoned buildings, I know that this is more realistic. I also don't like 3D models for dungeon crawls for this reason, even if they have covers for the unexplored parts - you can always tell generally where you are in relation to where you've been and to the boundaries of the dungeon.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I have to ask, what does making the Players recount their return trip add to the game? Five minutes of "I go north, north, east, south, east. Are we out now?" "Nope, you're in the jail room." "Okay, west, north, west, north, north, east?" "Nope, you're in the fountain room now, try again," just doesn't appeal to me on either side of the DM screen.

Is it random encounters? Is it wandering into areas they havn't been in yet? The first I don't use, and the second is unrealistic for the characters involved; they'd realize they havn't been somewhere, surely, moreso than the Player who only have the DM's description to go on. I always just assume that if the PCs want to backtrack to the jail or exit or whatever that they find their way without too much hassle. I also don't use monolithic, Halastirous, dungeons, though.

 

[ssampier]

I am obviously not being clear. I'll try again.

It is not about the characters having accurate numbers. The numbers are only the way to get the information the characters do have to the players.

Again - the character doesn't know from "hit points", but he does know how he feels, and how much further he can go without dropping. The mechanism to communicate that is a number that the player knows. Map distances are similar.

If I give you a baseball, you don't need to know the number of feet between yourself and home plate to know whether you'll reach it. Even if you don't know the numbers, you know the distance relative to your abilities (which is the real issue for the game).

But, the player isn't in the goblin filled cavern, and he isn't his character. What he does know is how many feet the fighter can throw an axe. So, to simulate the character knowledge, the player either needs the numbers, or has to keep asking you questions, because you haven't given him what he needs to know to make reasonable decisions for his character.

Again, that's where we differ. How would the character know much distance he can cover in a round? He can guess, of course, but with limited lighting and unfamiliar environment, he's going to be off at least a little bit.

I won't lie to the PC, but such estimatation are that, estimations, not actual measures of distance, whether that's feet, distance from outfield to home plate, or number of squares a character can run.

As for the second part:

So, to simulate the character knowledge, the player either needs the numbers, or has to keep asking you questions, because you haven't given him what he needs to know to make reasonable decisions for his character.

"You think you're about one turn away from Radger"
"The ceiling appears to be about 10 feet"

Notice my descriptions are purposefully vague; the character could still be wrong. The ceiling may be only 9 feet, then again it could 12 feet. I'm not going to be a rat-bastard and try to screw with them. The ceiling is actually 11 feet, so won't a 10 feet rope won't quite work. I'm just trying to have players do a little work if they want accurate measurement.

Again it's a preference, "a fog of war" if you will.

 

[Wolv0rine]

I'm an avid fan of mapping. While I grant that there are innate difficulties with giving players exact measurements and distances (although I'm willing to presume that it's possible that simple measurement methods may exist and are known to explorers and adventurers such as '2 paces equals 4 feet' or something along those lines), I think as a DM it's good to have a player carefully mapping the dungeon if for no other reason than such a player-drawn map is, at times, the only clue to a hidden or secret chamber. When you look at the map and say "Uh, guys... has anyone noticed that there's a large, unaccounted-for 30'X50' "space" in the center of this area here? I smell a rat..." then the map has paid for itself.

Maybe I'm just that "old school", but I still design dungeons using the assumpton that the party's only clue of such secret places is that unaccounted for area of the map. If the DM's doing the mapping for the party, he may as well put up a sign saying "Secret Room Here", because he's taken that piece of puzzle-solving out of the players' hands.

And, as far as characters getting lost... well... I also tend to use a few 'traps' that are designed to confuse, so if you don't have a map going on the characters themselves are in for a serious challenge of finding their way out.

I have to ask, what does making the Players recount their return trip add to the game? Five minutes of "I go north, north, east, south, east. Are we out now?" "Nope, you're in the jail room." "Okay, west, north, west, north, north, east?" "Nope, you're in the fountain room now, try again," just doesn't appeal to me on either side of the DM screen.

Nahh, doesn't have to be that at all. It can be just a simple matter of tracing a route on the map and saying "We go this way". Maybe because they know that path is safe (or think they know), maybe for other reasons. But just saying "We leave" strikes me as about as glossing over the subject as "We go adventure, how much XP do we get?"

 

[Roadkill101]

I like mapping. As a player I like to have a rough idea of the layout of a dungeon or complex I'm currently exploring. As a Gm, if it's a large extensive place, where many features look the same, I prefer to have someone in the party try to make a rough map or else they may end up lost depending on the circumstances.

However, much of the time mapping usually goes out the window for the following reasons.
1. GM doesn't allow enough time for mapping to take place.
2. Mapper either can't follow the description to get a rough idea or isn't paying enough attention.
3. Circumstances don't allow time for mapping.

To avoid the need for mapping during play, and depending upon the character, I'll try to equip some chalk or something similiar to mark the walls or floor during active exploration.

 

[Whisper72]

IT depends. Often mapping was a necessity, as it is one of the ways to find 'empty spaces' on the map, where secret rooms etc. might be located. As a DM I was always very fond of using secret, hidden parts in dungeon design, so my players were very much into detail.

I must admit that when the area the PC's game in is not a large, complex building or dungeon, then mapping is usually not done as it takes too much time....