A Thought on Turn-Based Movement

[Water Bob]

In my opinion, dealing with the guard fleeing would have been better off modeled as a skill challenge or ability check. Only drop back down to combat rules if the guard turns and fights, or the PCs get close enough to start combat.

Exactly. See the OP of THIS THREAD.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think it's pretty clear that, by RAW, readied actions are supposed to be initiated on a character's combat turn. From the responses in the thread, looks like most who commented on it agree.

I disagree that RAW is clear on that subject, but hey, agree to disagree. And an argument to majority doesn't really do anything for you in this case. If most people interpret X to be Y, it doesn't actually make it Y.

But, to your point, I have thought before about allowing a few things, like the readied action, to work as you say, before combat begins, leading into combat....I haven't thought about all the ramifcations of doing that, yet, though.

Allowing a single standard action really doesn't really alter the game much. Shoot an arrow, take a combat maneuver, cast a spell. At high levels this may mean something major, but it really depends on the caveats you as the DM put on what a player can do. I generally approve of allowing what 4e calls "melee basic" or an "at will". Something simple that wouldn't require intense preparation such as a high-level spell or multiple attacks or special powers.

It's a bad thing to give something to players, have them dig the change, then realize that you screwed up because of the rule of unintended consequences, and then have to take it away from the players. That sucks.

Sometimes it happens. It's always a reality with DMing. If you've got good players and you are clear that this rule may have unintended consequences on other parts of the game, sure, it still sucks when you take the cool thing away, but hey, if it's for the betterment of the game they'll be okay with it. If you've got whiny players who don't give a toot about having a balanced game, they will as soon as you turn the tables on them.

I like to think things out completely before I change RAW.

Fair enough, but sometimes you just gotta make a ruling for better or worse, in the heat of the moment.

 

[Stormonu]

Eh, don't have a problem with the rules as written for handling movement and attacks for the most part (talking about falling however, can get me frothing). though chases and races are wonky with the standard rules.

However, reading this did bring an idea to mind; break the round into two "phases", with everyone performing their first action (move or attack) in order, then their second action. "Full actions" would be broken between the two actions (for runs, example, in the first phase, the actor moves x2 distance. In the second phase, the actor moves again x2 distance. For "full attacks", break the attacks between the actions - a fighter who gets 3 attacks would get 1 attack in the 1st phase, 2 attacks in the 2nd phase. Charge might be handled by moving x2 in the first phase, making an attack in the second [And thus making charges against opponents who have weapons up a bit more dangerous, even if you have the initiative]). There'd be some issues with "interrupted actions" - where someone starts to do something and because of what someone else does the rest of their action gets invalidated (say a fighter starts a full attack, gets in an attack or two and then the enemy withdraws before the fighter can finish his attacks), but the DM and players can work something out for this (maybe -2 penalty to a changed action such as attacking a different foe or switching to a ranged weapon, maybe taking a move action instead with a -5 or -10 ft. move penalty, etc.).

Now, granted, in the OP's case, that probably wouldn't have still helped - the guard would be about 90 feet away. Personally, I don't have a problem with this; the PC's should have either had better ranged weapons, been stealthier or won initiative.

 

[S'mon]

I work with one of my players, and we actually were talking about old times last week, and the Star Wars game. He said, "Man, that was a great game until you tried to screw it up!"

He meant me trying to take away the PC's uber power with the dice swap. He still can't see how it hurt the game in the long run. All he knows is that, when he played the Wookiee, he ripped the leg off the AT-ST, and he enjoyed the heck out of that.

I have to say, these days I am with the players on this one. I don't find the default WEG Star Wars rules where your blaster is doing 4d6 vs a 3d6 target and it takes several shots to drop a man to be much like the movies. And in close combat I'd definitely expect melee weapons to beat ranged. The rule sounds great; if there's a problem it's more that early SW-d6 NPC design was poor (compare the 2d6-in-everything Stormtrooper to the Imperial Sourcebook NPCs), and I'd think the solution would be to upgrade Stormtroopers and other NPCs, and use the rule yourself. It should be rare for a SW PC to get hit, but really hurt when they are.

 

[Water Bob]

I have to say, these days I am with the players on this one. I don't find the default WEG Star Wars rules where your blaster is doing 4d6 vs a 3d6 target and it takes several shots to drop a man to be much like the movies.

Go back and re-watch! Many of those hits are just stuns that last for one round only. Basically, a hindrance. Blasters in Star Wars don't seem to be very accurate. Lots of heated tibanna gas flying back and forth. I think the default rules support that--many shots without dire consequences.

And in close combat I'd definitely expect melee weapons to beat ranged. The rule sounds great; if there's a problem it's more that early SW-d6 NPC design was poor (compare the 2d6-in-everything Stormtrooper to the Imperial Sourcebook NPCs),

Bite your tongue, young padawan! The 1E D6 Star Wars rules are GREAT! Light, quick, action.

I usually play with 2E R&E, but the 1E rules have a real charm to them. It's the simplicity.

and I'd think the solution would be to upgrade Stormtroopers and other NPCs, and use the rule yourself. It should be rare for a SW PC to get hit, but really hurt when they are.

If I upgraded stormtroopers, then the game wouldn't support scenes like Luke & Leia swinging across the Death Star chasm, tons of troopers firing at them.

Remember, in Star Wars, a regular human is 2D in every stat. That 12D in stats. Troopers shouldn't be much more than that, and by the default rules, they aren't. Most PC heroes start the game with 18D to put into stats, depending on race.

 

[Sunseeker]

Go back and re-watch! Many of those hits are just stuns that last for one round only. Basically, a hindrance. Blasters in Star Wars don't seem to be very accurate. Lots of heated tibanna gas flying back and forth. I think the default rules support that--many shots without dire consequences.

This is, IMO, how most games with guns should work. Lots of shots, few hits, high probability of death on a hit. I remember in Deadlands firing off 6 shots per "round", each shot doing 3d6 damage, but only hitting with 2/6 shots. Toss in some exploding dice and yeah, a single hit can take down an enemy...course it can almost take you down since you're working with fixed HP and a wound system. Low HP, high damage, many, many enemies. I think it's a fairly honest representation of how firearms combat works in regards to heroism. Taking down one of two powerful enemies with a long-drawn out battle is the realm of the sword. Taking down a small army with a barrage of gunfire is the realm of well..the gun. At least when we're talking about heroic deeds.

Anyway, slightly off topic, I highly enjoy the SW RPG, in all of it's disturbingly brokenness.

 

[S'mon]

Bite your tongue, young padawan! The 1E D6 Star Wars rules are GREAT! Light, quick, action.

Er, yeah, that's the only edition I played. And how young do you think someone who was running WEG Star Wars in 1987 can be, anyway?

 

[Ferghis]

Therefore, I still think it's a good plan to go with RAW as the default, until I have a damn good reason to change.

I guess I would omit the "damn" from that sentence, but I respect your position as a sensible one.

I've changed rules before and gotten bitten. The worst is when the players like the change, but I, as GM, know its bad for the game in the long run.

I've found it useful to have a houserule that says, more or less, that any ruling, until formally incorporated into the houserules, is a one-time ruling, and cannot be used again by players. I'm not sure what it does, but it gives me something to point to in the situation you describe.

I also believe in strong DM's and not being a slave to the rules. If a rule, after much thought, doesn't meet my standard or taste, then I change it. But, I always try to keep changes to a minimum. Hodge-podge rules are a nightmare, in my estimation. Those may work from some GM's, but not me.

I don't want to push my contestation too far, but I wouldn't label what you describe as a "strong" DM. It seems to me that anyone who doesn't do what you describe is just unreasonable. I would hope that a strong DM would perform surgery on the offending rules after none to moderate thought.

In my opinion, dealing with the guard fleeing would have been better off modeled as a skill challenge or ability check. Only drop back down to combat rules if the guard turns and fights, or the PCs get close enough to start combat.

This certainly works well. So would simply letting the first PCs to round the corner to go first, or giving them a large initiative bonus.

 

[Water Bob]

Er, yeah, that's the only edition I played. And how young do you think someone who was running WEG Star Wars in 1987 can be, anyway?

LOL. I'm right there with you. I bought 1E Star Wars, brand new, from my local game store when it first hit the shelves. I remember borrowing money from my girlfriend at the time to buy the book. She didn't like that....she didn't like me gaming. Thought it was dork-ish.

Oh well. That girlfriend is long gone and probably married to some other dork with dork-ish kids of her own. And, I've still got my Star Wars book--love that freakin' game.

The D6 Star Wars rules are absolutely the best match I've ever seen between universe and game mechanics. Fun. Quick. Fly by the seat of your pants action. Those rules make you believe that a 19 year old farm boy can fly a modern fighter and take out the moon-sized space station, all the while with his dead mentor mumbling in his ear.

Damn, that D6 Star Wars game is fun.

Hell, I can almost here John Williams' score when I roll the dice.






POST SCRIPT: The D6 Star Wars game went through several versions and upgrades. The original game, let's call it 1E, is very rules light and simplistic. It's made for a creative GM and Star Wars lovers. Extremely fun game if you're not a rules lawyer.

Stats are actual dice codes: DEXTERITY 2D. Only 6 sided dice are used. If you need to make a DEX check, you threw 2 six siders, added them up. If your throw was high enough, you succeeded. If your throw missed, then you failed. Extremely simple, yet effective and fun, fun, fun.

Everything in the game was just a matter of how many dice to throw. Skills added dice to the base stat. For example, the Blaster skills is DEX based. So, if you don't have any training with a blaster, you shoot at your base DEX: Blaster 2D. If you do have training, you add that to your base stat. If you put 2D of training into your blaster, you've now got Blaster 4D (2D from DEX, 2D from training). When you shoot, you throw 4 d6. Simple, simple, simple.

You've got 1D of piloting under your belt? The Space Transports skill is governed by DEX, thus, you've got Space Transports 3D. If you're trying to avoid that asteroid while the TIE fighters are chasing you, you throw 3D. But, your ship has installed in it an upgraded maneuvering package? It adds....1D to piloting checks. Now, in this ship, you throw 4D to avoid the asteroid (in other vessels, you'd throw 3D, since those ships don't have the maneuvering package).

Easy!

Then came the Rules Upgrade, where the 1E system was made a bit more detailed.

Next came the Rules Companion, a decent sized book that put more meat on several sections of the rules. Among the changes: The movement system was made more detailed, and "pips" are used with dice throws. Before, only whole dice were used (1D, 2D, 3D, etc). Now, a modifier of +1 or +2 or more could be applied. For example, you might have a base DEX of 2D +1. And, with training, your Blaster skill is improved by 1D +1. Thus, you have Blaster 2D +2.

Then, WEG published Star Wars Second Edition, and this game introduced a host of more detailed changes to the rules. More skills. Different types of skills (Advanced skills were introduced, where you've got to be trained in the skill in order to use it properly--you couldn't just use your base stat as you could with most other skills). An exploding die, called the Wild Die, to the task system, that allowed for lucky large totals and complications to occur during tasks.

Finally, the last published set of rules for WEG's amazing game was the Star Wars Second Edition Revised & Expanded set. This rule set is the most adaptable of them all. Lots of optional mechanics. Make the game as detailed as you like, or go back to the simplicity of the first edition. Even with all the bells and whistles turned "on", this is a fantastic set of rules for the Star Wars universe that is very easy to master yet can deliver some very specific results. It's a much easier game to play and learn than 3.5 D&D yet it can deliver equivalent specific play.

It's an amazing set of rules to use to game by.

If anybody is interested, reading this, WEG, a few years ago, allowed their game system (not the Star Wars stuff, but the generic rules) to go free. Today, you can log on to DriveThruRPG and download a lot of D6 game material for absolutely zero cost. Free. Look for D6 Space. D6 Fantasy. WEG publishing.

Those rules are slightly different from what is presented in SW 2E R&E. Stat names change, depending on the genre. Some mechanics are handled slightly differently. There's no "Force" stuff...it's been replaced with "Psionics". You get the idea. Still, you can consider the game as Star Wars 3rd Edition (sorta). It's a version of what is available in the Star Wars game. (WEG also used the same rules for the Indianna Jones RPG...and the Ghostbusters RPG.)

 

[Water Bob]

I don't want to push my contestation too far, but I wouldn't label what you describe as a "strong" DM. It seems to me that anyone who doesn't do what you describe is just unreasonable.

I started to send you a PM on this, but I thought it better out here in the open. You took me completely wrong, here. I didn't mean to imply that you were not a strong DM. I just meant that I believe the DM should be strong, whomever he is, whether it be me, you, or someone else. I believe that the DM is the "director" of the game. He calls the shots. He's the ref and the judge. He's the ultimate deity in his game.

Some DM's don't play this way. They become facilitators of the rules as printed. Those are the people that I'd call "weak" DMs because they do not exert their power on the game.

Don't take anything I've said to mean that I disapprove of the way you run things. I wasn't thinking that way at all. I was just explaining how I do things. Lots of people don't do what I do, and that bothers me not at all--nor should it!

So, rock on. Play your game as you will. Have fun.

I'm just exchaning ideas here.