A thought on Turn Undead

[evilbob]

My problem with Turn Undead has always been twofold:

1) It's non-intuitive. It's the only part of the game (essentially) where you roll for success on a chart, not against a DC or against an opponent's check. And undead don't get a save - they either are, or are not, turned.

2) It's non-cumulative. As the undead pour in to consume the party, and the fighter swings his sword and the wizard casts his magic missiles, the cleric... ...tells the undead to leave. Flavourful? Debateably. But doesn't get across that the Cleric is the undead butt-kicker, exactly, does it?

Seconded, seconded! Hear, hear!

So I've switched to turns that do damage....

Do you realize that this mechanic is strikingly similar to the "turn undead variant" rule in Complete Divine? The main difference is in how you handle turn resistance (the splat book just reduces the total damage by turn resistance, instead of x5), and that you've actually decided to handle greater turning (splat book is strangely silent). The turning DC calculation is also just cleric level instead of 1/2, I believe.

The main issue I had with the Complete Divine variant is that with a d12 for a hit die, undead tend to be pretty tough - and often times, especially at low levels, you will fight dozens of them, thanks to their low CR. Killing an undead outright is not the same as turning them, but: it's effectively the same, since you're either removing them from combat or placing them in a corner where your friends can beat them to bits. In my opinion, it would be more in line with what the cleric actually does to give the turn undead power a d12 damage die, or in some other way ramp up the strength. Otherwise, its just not worth replacing something that has the chance of removing something from battle altogether with something that just does a little damage. (Also, as you've already fixed, the DC is a weird calculation and the turn resistance gets nerfed - although I think turn resistance should just reduce turn damage by "average of 1 level's worth of damage," or around 3 in this case.)

 

[Nifft]

I read a mechanic somewhere in which you rolled damage (either 1d6 or 2d6 per Cleric level) and, if the number exceeded the undead's remaining hit points, it was destroyed. If the undead have more HP than the roll, it is unaffected.

Thus, Turn Undead would become more of a "finishing move" than an opening move, and everyone gets to beat up the undead before the Cleric uses his big trick.

- - -

My own addition would be:

1/ You can Turn Undead in a 20 ft. radius and you roll 1d6 per level. All undead in the area are affected.

2/ You can Turn Undead vs. a single target within 30 ft., and you roll 2d6 per level. This is the big vampire-killer.

3/ Turn Resistance is like Damage Reduction vs. turn rolls.

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

Another thing about the simple damage "turn" variants: all undead have good will saves (it's inherent to their type). Add to that the fact that undead advance in CR at the rate of 1 CR per 4 HD, and you have that many undead of the right challenge level will often not have a problem making a will save against 1/2 cleric level + Cha, which is probably why they bumped it up to cleric level + Cha. (A CR 1 ghoul has a +5 will. A CR 4 wyvern zombie has +9. A lvl 4 cleric's turn DC would be around 16 at best.)

And I still think 1d6 per cleric level is too low. You can't even kill CR 1/3 skeletons (well, 84% of the time anyway) as a level 1 cleric that way. It would take a level 2 cleric at least 2 turns to take out a CR 1/2 zombie. The problem isn't quite as bad against high-level intelligent undead that rely less on HP and more on tactics, but it still seems off.

I'd propose the Complete Devine rule except that damage is 1d12 per cleric level, and turn resistance reduces damage by 6 x resistance (basically, an average of 1 level's worth). Greater turning could just empower the turn damage. (Plus, this way you finally have a use for those d12s!)

 

[Nifft]

And I still think 1d6 per cleric level is too low. You can't even kill CR 1/3 skeletons (well, 84% of the time anyway) as a level 1 cleric that way. It would take a level 2 cleric at least 2 turns to take out a CR 1/2 zombie. The problem isn't quite as bad against high-level intelligent undead that rely less on HP and more on tactics, but it still seems off.

Well, the point is to make it so the rest of the party has to beat up the skeletons first. Or as a post-fireball cleanup.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Or maybe it was Xd6 + Cha bonus... something to push a 1st level dude above 3.5 damage...

 

[GreatLemur]

In my next campaign, I am going to test out making Turn Undead a spell.

On the face of it, I don't really dig the idea of using a spell for turning, because it always struck me as weird that Clerics cast spells anyway, and that would put divine feats in a weird place. (Do they all become metamagic feats that only effect one spell? Or should they, too, become spells in their own right?)

However, I've got to say that it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the current situation: Why would turn attempts and spells per day be completely separate resources? Isn't all that power coming from the same source, and being channeled through the same person? Where's the sense in running out of one kind of miracle, and not another? (Similarly, I fervently believe that Clerics should be spontaneous casters, but that's getting way off-topic.)

I read a mechanic somewhere in which you rolled damage (either 1d6 or 2d6 per Cleric level) and, if the number exceeded the undead's remaining hit points, it was destroyed. If the undead have more HP than the roll, it is unaffected.

Thus, Turn Undead would become more of a "finishing move" than an opening move, and everyone gets to beat up the undead before the Cleric uses his big trick.

Timing that for maximum effect sounds a little difficult, but it does present a completely awesome image. I like the idea of a party struggling against a horde of undead, the Cleric urging them to spread their damage around, and waiting until the last moment to make the whole lot of 'em explode at once.