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5E A wizard with a "Boots of Elvenkind" using inivisibility spell

maritimo80

Villager
A wizard with a "Boots of Elvenkind" using inivisibility spell like someone could detect it if it can not be seen and does not make noise when moving?


This combination has created a big problem in the game, because not find anything in the rule covering this, and I'm very easy wizard just disappear, and no one able to use your perception against him.


What an enemy could roll to perceive the Wizard Invisible with Elvenkind boots ?


To the Wizard hiding successfully, he simply invisible?


Someone could crawl or perceive the Sorcerer by their footprints?

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Boots of Elvenkind

Uncommon wondrous Item




These soft, supple boots feature intricate leaf patterns sewn into the leather. An elf who sees a non-­‐elf wearing these boots typically assumes that they are stolen. In some cases, however, boots of elvenkind are presented
as gifts to the elves’ most trusted and valued allies.

Property: While you wear boots of elvenkind, your movement makes no sound, regardless of the surface you move across, even if dry leaves cover it, it is a creaky floor, or is covered by loose gravel or broken glass.
 

MasterTrancer

Villager
Well, invisible people still have mass so they displace things (eg.: drapes, cobwebs and yes, powder and dirt on the flooring).

If I expected invisible people around (and that's a BIG if, but it really depends on the situation) I'd spill at least some flour on the ground; Elven Boots just dampen the sound.

Add to that also the eventual mud, or the footprints left behind (which I don't think they're made invisible by the spell, though someone could correct me).
 
I would allow perception, just make it harder. Someone with tracking would be be particularly able to notice that there are tracks, but they indicate someone is still there. For others, grass or dirt would be depressed where the character's standing. An npc with very good perception might notice a cessation of a draft when the wiz moves through a doorway or near him. (I saw that one in a Zelazny book). Creatures with echolocation or tremorsense would still perceive him. Anything that can detect magic or life force as well.
 

Nebulous

Explorer
A wizard with a "Boots of Elvenkind" using inivisibility spell like someone could detect it if it can not be seen and does not make noise when moving?


This combination has created a big problem in the game, because not find anything in the rule covering this, and I'm very easy wizard just disappear, and no one able to use your perception against him.


What an enemy could roll to perceive the Wizard Invisible with Elvenkind boots ?


To the Wizard hiding successfully, he simply invisible?


Someone could crawl or perceive the Sorcerer by their footprints?

--------------------------------------

Boots of Elvenkind

Uncommon wondrous Item

Just to clarify, does one of the players have the boots and the invisibility spell, and this person is using it in a way that feels unfair, because monsters cannot detect him? Like, at all? Now, i would say that you have a potent combination there, and as such, it would be nearly impossible to detect such a stealthily masked person. Especially if your common foe is unaware and unprepared for a silenced, invisible enemy. That in itself, i don't think you can really do much about. It is what it is. It would be a very high Perception DC, regardless. Scent and tremorsense and lifesense would bypass it, mostly.

I think you have a couple of options if this combo is really bothering you. Introduce some enemies who can see through invisibility, dispel the invisibility, or find a way to remove the boots of elvenkind from the character.
 

Ragmon

Villager
Off the top of my head:
- Blind sense
- Blind sight
- Tremor sense
- Life sense
- Scent

Spell:
- Dispel magic
- Anti-magic field
- See invisible
- True seeing
- Detect magic
- Arcane sight
- Glitter dust
- Detect that specific type of creature, or alignment.

General stuff:
- Track
- Successful listen check
 

Gilladian

Adventurer
Also, don't forget sense of smell. Animals would know someone was nearby, and react. And they still can make noise with the rest of their body, or movements. Creaking door hinges, tinkling bead curtains, moving plant fronds, interrupted water spray, etc.. Or just knocking things over in a crowded room.

If you as DM realize this is a broken combination, talk to the player and maybe limit how often the item works. 2 hours a day, or something similar.
 

KarinsDad

Villager
Off the top of my head:
- Blind sense
- Blind sight
- Tremor sense
- Life sense
- Scent

Spell:
- Dispel magic
- Anti-magic field
- See invisible
- True seeing
- Detect magic
- Arcane sight
- Glitter dust
- Detect that specific type of creature, or alignment.

General stuff:
- Track
- Successful listen check
All of these work except the last one. NPCs cannot make a successful listen check against a PC that has the boots on. Even the sound of the PC's armor is part of sound caused by movement.
 

KarinsDad

Villager
This combination has created a big problem in the game, because not find anything in the rule covering this, and I'm very easy wizard just disappear, and no one able to use your perception against him.
My suggestion is to not worry about it.

Our DM handed out a magic item at low level that was too powerful for our group. As we gain levels, the item becomes less and less powerful.

The same will happen with the wizard and the boots. Eventually, the PCs will run into encounters where that combination does not matter.

For example, enemy area effect damaging spells. Or traps that the wizard does not perceive. Walking around invisible, he'll sometimes walk right into a trap. Or creatures with the special senses and the ability to sense him.

Also, if the wizard is concentrating on invisibility, he is not getting the advantage of other concentration spells, nor is he able to cast a spell or attack without going visible. Although this really protects a wizard, it also really hampers him as well. What good is a wizard who cannot cast a spell? And if he does it multiple times, he's sucking up second level spell slots.

Think of it as a minor bump in the road instead of a problem. It's only a problem in your game if you perceive it to be a problem in your game, so don't perceive it that way.
 

Nebulous

Explorer
It's a potent combination, no doubt. As a DM, you would have to sort of pre-plan a workaround and re-evaluate threats if it is starting to feel like a cakewalk. Personally, if a player was getting uber-cocky, I'd keep letting him think that until he got into a situation where it all got stripped away suddenly. Very scary.
 

KarinsDad

Villager
Oooh...this is not in the 3.5 section.
It doesn't matter. The boots do not state that they do not work with armor, so they do work with armor. If they work with armor, the item would be worthless with armor if it did not prevent the sound. Plus, there would be no way to adjudicate it since there is no perception roll at all for something that does not make sound. Hence, there is no disadvantage for heavy armor for a perception roll that does not exist.

Bottom line, any noise from armor is considered part of movement. If the armor is not moving, it should not be making noise.

This does not mean that if something struck the armor, that it would not make a sound. It would. It just means that the normal sounds of armor caused by movement would not be heard.
 

Eejit

Villager
All of these work except the last one. NPCs cannot make a successful listen check against a PC that has the boots on. Even the sound of the PC's armor is part of sound caused by movement.
Listening could still work, depending how long the invisible person can hold their breath for.
 

KarinsDad

Villager
Listening could still work, depending how long the invisible person can hold their breath for.
As a DM, I would not default to allowing an NPC to listen for a PC's breathing without extenuating circumstances like the NPC knowing the existence of the PC and it is a totally quiet room, or the PC was just exerting himself heavily, or the NPC has a particularly keen sense of hearing or something similar.

I would not give a roll to an NPC to hear a PC under normal circumstances (99% of the time). Breathing cannot be heard even in quiet places for any significant distance and where there is any background noise at all (even the breathing of other NPCs), it would be nearly impossible to hear.

Sit in a quiet room. Most people would have difficulty hearing their own breathing unless they take a deep breath. Note: this changes with sleeping when the conscious mind is no longer in control.


People can take this out of hand in a game.

DM: "You did not have breakfast this morning, so he hears your stomach rumbling." :lol:


The intent of the boots is to make a PC quiet, so the PC is quiet unless he purposes tries to make noise as a general rule. Otherwise, why does the DM even hand out the boots if he is going to just ignore the magic of them and give the NPCs listening checks anyway? Granted, a given DM might have the boots just make a PC harder to hear, but that should probably be a stealth modifier in that case and not how the boots in this post were written up.
 

Dausuul

Legend
DUH! From the OP I guess (at least, that's where I got them...)
Oh, I see. I thought the OP was paraphrasing a published magic item, and I wanted to verify what the actual rules text said. If it's homebrewed, then it's a question for the DM--the DM should decide how he or she would like the boots to work, and make them work that way.

If I were presented with a published magic item whose text was simply, "The wearer of these boots makes no sound while moving," my first response would be to gripe about lazy designers not putting in the minimum effort to define how an item works in common situations. Then I'd rule you can't be detected while invisible except in special circumstances (e.g., you're moving through mud and leaving tracks, or you just fought your way out of an otyugh's nest and haven't washed off the stink). Under those circumstances, Perception checks to detect you get disadvantage.
 

Tormyr

Adventurer
Where are you guys finding the stats for boots of elvenkind?
My quess is that it comes from the September play test.

When wearing these, your movement makes no sound, even from the environment (dry leaves, broken glass, creaking floor boards).

Also, any elves who see a non-elf wearing these assume that they are stolen, although they are sometimes given as gifts.
 

Ilbranteloth

Villager
I think the rules cover this pretty well already.

Initially, the chance for detection would be Passive Perception (at -5 due to disadvantage). This covers all of those minute possibilities that they are just noticed. Once there is a reason for somebody to actively be searching, I would rule that they make a Perception check with disadvantage.

Note that even without the boots of elvenkind, invisibility automatically grants advantage on your attack (because you can't be seen), and then is dispelled. If your opponent is attempting to attack first, it's at disadvantage (because they can't see you), and might miss altogether if they don't know where you are.

The miss chance goes away if they know where you are (succeed on their Perception check). Once they know where you are (presumably even if you have a ring or cloak that can't be dispelled), you'd have to successfully Hide (with advantage, and their Perception check is probably at disadvantage) in order to be someplace else to maintain that miss chance.

The fact that all of this is irrelevant with a 1st level spell (Faerie Fire) can't be overlooked. Throwing a shovelful of ashes from the fireplace onto the floor, smashing a few bottles, or similar approaches to reveal footsteps, or even throwing ashes or flour onto the invisible creature (DMs judgement as to whether it becomes invisible) are also things to keep in mind.

Another thing that DMs often forget is that your allies can't determine where you are either. So if they are planning on rushing into battle (or firing missiles) then there could be potential consequences as well. At the very least I'd probably rule that a critical miss might in fact have struck the silent and invisible ally. It depends a lot on the action that's going on.

As was also mentioned before, other sense still work, and I think that, at least in their home, most high level villians have far too few pets (dogs, etc.) than they should. Once a dog has latched onto the invisible creature, then Perception checks are irrelevent. Attacks against them may still be at disadvantage, but they wouldn't have a miss chance then either.

But by far my favorite defense is Faerie Fire. I point it out to every new spell caster because it not only reveals the invisible creature but everybody gets advantage on attacks against them. An almost ridiculously powerful 1st level spell.

Ilbranteloth
 

Ashkelon

Villager
I always imagined invisibility working like a chameleon suit.

When you are still, you are perfectly invisible. When you move, there is a faint outline as the light bends around you.

So even a silent invisible creature will still be somewhat noticeable while they move.

Also, don't forget that people breath, clothes rustle, pouches jangle, etc. Just because your footsteps aren't making noise, it does not mean you are totally silent.
 
This combination has created a big problem in the game, because not find anything in the rule covering this, and I'm very easy wizard just disappear, and no one able to use your perception against him.
He's one trap away from having his legs blown off. If he wants to scout ahead with his new toys, let him. He can still trigger a trap and die.
 

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