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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6711078" data-attributes="member: 22779">Well, if by balanced you mean that a battle master fighter can just about keep up with a paladin, I suppose that's balance of a sorts.  Of course it ignores the fifteen other things paladins get, and the fact that fighters, by their nature, are supposed to do MORE damage, but, you can call it balance if you like.Look, the math isn't that hard.  My character does about 10 points of damage per hit.  He gets two attacks on a surge.  10 damage is about (close enough anyway) 2d8 worth of Smite damage.  The 8th level paladin gets 17d8 in smite damage.  IOW, when I surge, I do about 4d8 worth of smite damage.  It would take me 4 surges just to EQUAL the paladin's damage output.  Next level, the paladin gets 2x3rd level spells, meaning he gets 10d8 MORE smite damage, bringing him to 27d8 smite dice.  It would take me 6 surges in a day just to equal his damage.  Not exceed, just equal.And you call that balanced?Even if I was a battlmaster, I'd still do 4d8 worth of smite damage on a surge, with an extra 5d8 worth of superiority dice damage, so, 9d8 bonus damage per short rest.  I have to short rest at least once just to equal the paladin at 8th level, and twice at 9th.  The character that's supposed to be the best at melee combat has to blow every single bonus die he can, THREE TIMES, just to equal what the paladin can do in 10 rounds.  Note, this back of the envelope calculation assumes that every surge attack hits.  So, will you at least admit that my fighter is seriously lagging behind the paladin in damage?  It takes me 4 surges just to equal his damage output.  IOW, most days, I can't even come close to what he can do.  Remember, his bonus dice are never wasted, the way a surge attack could be through a miss.  As it stands right now, I can't equal the paladin in damage.  There is simply no way.  Next level, it gets even worse.  By 11th level, where I get that 3rd attack, it gets a little closer, but, I'm still going to be playing second fiddle.No, I would not say that the classes are balanced.  I'd say fighters are woefully underpowered, considering all they get are (pretty much) direct combat abilities, and all that does is bring me par with the classes that get combat abilities PLUS non-combat abilities.  Sorry, a minor skill bonus at 3rd level isn't really in the same league as a paladin's detection ability, healing abilities, damage immunities, and various other gew gaws.</blockquote>

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