Abilities as the Core - uh yeah...

[CuRoi]

Well, now that someone at Wizards is tossing this idea around,

Maybe I'll actually get some traction / input on the following:

www.eyrurpg.com

None of this is play tested by the way and mostly free thinking. I'd expect some serious issues along the way if I ever play test it. But its the rough idea for a system based around attributes.

I think Mearl's way of putting it is more succinct than my own but here's one way I describe it one my site:

"4e started to address the complexity issues with methods similar to what I am proposing. I was hopeful. Once I got a hold of the 4e rules, I could see the glimmer of a wonderful, unified system which had thrown off some unnecessary complexity. The 4e designers then took their slick solutions and buried them underneath a pasture of sacred cows where it struggled to break free.

For instance, 4e's addition of the concept of "attacking" with any attribute was a slick way of moving toward a single action resolution mechanic. I took one look at that and thought 'this is marvelous, but we could do so much more to reduce complexity if we continue to build on that idea.' Saving Throws (or Defenses) are made redundant if you push the idea out to its extreme; AC is also perhaps a concept who's time has come to evolve and can also be made redundant."

I've tried a few posts and two threads and heard nothing but crickets : )

Might happen again, but ah well. Worth a shot. Feel free to post/email with feedback - I turned off comments on my site due to spam.

 

[CuRoi]

*chirp* *chirp*

Ah well. Maybe a little more explanation of my thinking?

Defenses: (Attribute bonus + class bonus + 10)
Constitution (Replaces a Fort save)
Dexterity (Replaces a Reflex save and replaces "AC" - armor is now DR)
Wisdom (Replaces a Will save)

Attacks: (Attribute bonus + class bonus + d20)
Strength (for Melee attacks)
Intelligence (now Perception and includes Missile attacks)
Charisma (is the prime attack stat for casters)

So in action it looks like the following -

Strength Attacks Dexterity for melee attacks

Intelligence (now Perception) attacks Dexterity for missile attacks (You still need a high dex for any of the Missile Combat feats - so missile combat is now truly dependent on hand/eye co-ordination.)

Charisma attacks Willpower - Say a Bard casting a Charm Person Spell,

etc.

So, what, too insane? Figured if I'd been working on it for months and Mike Mearls suddenly drops a little hint about "Abilities as core" that I'd maybe get a bit of interest : )

EDIT * Based on Ardoughter's comments below
For clarity: Each attribute has a Natural Bonus and a Training Bonus. The actual "stat" number is really of little use except maybe record keeping and won't appear on the character sheet. So Strength and Con on the sheet of a 5th level fighter would look something like

Strength: +3 Natural +5 Training +d20 (Rolled when you perform a strength attack)
Constitution: +2 Natural +5 Training +10 (Shown as a defense compared against the attacks made on your PC)

The below condition penalties therefore are just general "after the fact" penalties and don't necessarily apply to the Natural of Training modifier but to the situation/roll as a whole.

 

[CuRoi]

Well, I see a few views on the counter so I'll continue with an explanation of my thoughts. Keep in mind, this has not seen extensive playtesting yet, but the idea is mainly to create a structure to work with for a more intuitive system.

The next thing I wanted to deal with was conditions. Hit point damage is pretty self explanatory. You take "x" damage and mark off your total HPs. The other thing which can affect your PC (or adversaries) are the various conditions. 3.5 condition summary lists about 40, 4e thankfully cut this number down (well...sort of).

My intent was to condense that into another easy to use, intuitive system which would build on the new idea of attacking and defending with attributes. It is based on "wound systems" found in several other RPGs.

So, there are 10 conditions, each with three tiers (some I have removed as "states", others I have consolidated). In many cases, stacking multiple effects that cause a condition will cause the conditon to worsen. In most cases, when an attack causes a condition, an attacker can theoretically "crit". If the defender fails, they are on tier one of the condition. If they fail by 10 or more, Tier 2, 20 or more Tier 3.

Also for simplicity, each one of these states takes on uniform penalties, namely -2 for Tier one, -4 for Tier Two and Tier three is almost always some sort of really bad situation.

Each of these will be represented with a tracker on the character sheet for easy reference.

Several things to note:
Some combat penalties and states have been rolled into a "condition". For example, being Grappled is equivalent to being Entangled; Kneeling is equivalent to be being Hampered. This cuts down unnecessary rules creep.

Also, things can get a bit more dangerous. The system allows me to completely remove subdual damage. Either a critical strike or repeated bludgeonings could take a PC from "Dazed" to Knocked Out.

This also opens up some uniformity for spells which did not previously exist and allows for some cool tricks (save or suck toned down by requiring Wizards to beat defenses by a certain amount in order to apply the realy nasty effects, etc.)

I'm sure the application will need plenty of tweaking for actual play, but you should get the general idea of what I ws shooting for.

Constitution Defense Failures

Daze
Dazed – Stunned – Knocked Out
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Dexterity and Perception (Agility).
Stunned characters may only take a single Standard action per round.
Knocked Out characters are effectively helpless. They can be roused to "Stunned" by magic, a full round Healing check versus the recovery DC, or a succsessful Constitution Defense versus the recovery DC.

Fatigue
Fatigued – Exhausted – Asleep
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Strength and Con (Body).
Exahausted characters cannot run and are at 1/2 movement (this is not cummulative with movement penalty from Hampered).
Asleep characters are effectively helpless. They can be roused by magic, a full round Healing check versus the recovery DC, or a succsessful Alertness check versus the recovery DC.

Weakness
Weakened – Decayed – Incapacitated
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Strength and Con (Body).
Decayed characters can only take a single Standard action per round.
Incapacitated characters are so weak they are unable to move however they remain aware of their environment. It takes magic or a Healing check against the recovery DC as a full round action to improve their condition.

Dying
Disabled – Dying – Dead*
(See the Death's Door section for more detail. This condition is cleared when a player is healed past zero hit points, however lingering effects may remain.)

Dexterity Defense Failures

Hampered (Direct or Environmental)
Hampered – Entangled/Prone – Immobilized
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Dexterity and Perception. (Agility)
Hampered equals ½ move. Hampered also is equivalent to a player choosing to enter into a position of less manuverability such as kneeling (Attack penalties with some ranged weapons may be waived in this case).
Entangled is 5 feet per round movement. This can apply if you are attempting to move in a manner that is not a natural mode of movement for your character (Climbing, squeezing, swimming for a Human for instance). A prone character (a character that is deprived of their normal mode of movement i.e. bipedal creature flat on the ground; fish on the beach, etc.) is also considered to be in this category. Entangled/Prone is also the same as “Grappling”, however the penalty does not apply to the person you are grappling. Normally, you can try to escape this condition each round by making a successful check against whatever holds you in place.
Immobilized characters need help to get free and have no move actions. They may be allowed limited standard actions depending on the source of the condition. Situations will vary on how to accomplish these allowed actions (Strength Attacks versus bonds, Magical assistance, etc.).

Dodge
Half Force - Full Force - Critical Damage
While this is a Defense check with instantaneous effects, this describes your ability to escape some forms of direct damage. Many attacks on Dexterity Defenses by spells follow this pattern of damage. "Half force" means you take one half damage; Full force is full damage and Critical damage is usually double listed damage and/or some other special effect.

Wisdom Defense Failures

Vision (Direct or Environmental)
Dazzled – Obscured – Blinded
The -2/-4 penalty applies to any attack, defense, or skill that requires vision or co-ordination
Charcaters affected by the Obscured condition cannot see clearly beyond 5 feet.
Characters affected by the Blinded condition cannot apply training to Attacks or Defenses that require sight.

Fright
Shaken – Frightened – Cowering
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Perception and Dexterity (Agility)
Cowering characters are overcome with fear and cannot act.

Charm
Fascinated – Charmed – Dominated*
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Charisma and Wisdom (Mind)
A Fascinated creature is predisposed to focus on it's target of fascination, however the creature is not an automaton or under any direct influence.
A Charmed creature is less perceptive and it's affiliation is altered (Role played as per limitations of spell or effect).
A Dominated creature is under the complete control of another entity. It's perception penalties still remain however as it's mind is clouded.

Sanity
Distracted - Confused - Insane
The -2/-4 penalty applies to Charisma and Wisdom (Mind)
A Distracted character simply has trouble focusing and collecting their thoughts. A concentration check of 10+spell level is required to cast spells.
A Confused character has great difficult focusing and may be subject to continued attacks on their Wisdom each round or risk random behavior. A concentration check of 15+spell level is required to cast spells.
An Insane character has lost it's mental faculties. In general, it cannot cast spells, cannot perform complicated tasks and cannot act in a rational manner.

 

[CuRoi]

Yet another topic is cropping up in the threads which I also have sought to deal with in this theoretical DnD version. It's also maybe something touched on by Mearls as well in his article on scalability.

The issue is crazy complicated stat blocks for monsters. 4e did alright on this one - it dialed them back a bit. The full blown character treatment of 3e got overwhelming - especially when you started talking about templates, monsters with classes, and other highly detailed creatures. I consider myself a decent DM, but I can't tell you how many times I have forgotten a monster's Feat, Class Ability, Special Ability, or some random thing added by a template.

So, the conditions info above hints a little at my solution to this problem.

Each condition effects a pair of attributes; one defensive, the other offensive. These attributes pairings are labeled: Body / Mind / Agility. Body is the physical toughness of a creature (Str and Con), Mind the mental conviction and knowledge (Wis and Cha), and Agility the physical and mental agility (Dex and Perception or what was Int).

In essence, wth the new "attributes as core system" this means I can boil down all six attributes, three saving throws, any spell DCs a creature has, Grapple BAB, standard BAB, and even AC all into these three stats for what could be termed as a minion. Further, skills are simplified and the bonus is based solely on the matching attribute pair applicable to the skill.

So for example:

Ogre Mage (Minion)
HD: 5d8+25, B:+10(5) M:+5(3) A:+4(2), Speed 40 / 40 fly, Armor:d4+2, Damage: 3d6+7 (Greatsword), Reach 10', Darkvision 60, regen 5
Skills Trained: Concentration (10), Listen (4), Spellcraft (5), Spot (4)

(Spell like abilities and other abilities then follow)

A "Boss" could be fleshed out more. Each Attribute could be spelled out and even class levels added for more complexity. The point is, the levle of complexity can match whatever the game/story is demanding at the time. I know most DMs do something like this. I know for just random encounters or plenty of times when I am winging it, I mentally boil things down to a key set of numbers I will need. This just provides a system for doing so.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Ok, I am going to throw in a few comments, first off I think your site is a pain in the ass to navigate. Too much teaser material and too much clicking to find out anything. Remember, I just followed your link pretty much out of idle curiosity and once I am there I really need a reason to continue reading.

I am not getting it at the moment.

As for what you have posted here, I am not particularly enamoured by what is posted so far. Not really a fan of system that involve a lot of writing down bouncing ability numbers.


Take the Daze stuff, I prefer if stuff like that impacts on the action economy and the debuf is something simple that is used elsewhere like the 4e version, where you loose actions and grant combat advantage.

Weakness, How is decayed (awful term, makes me think of zombies) different from stunned? I know different abilities are modified but what does that bring to the game?

It seems to me that you could have a lot less conditions. It seems to be that there is little mechanical difference between, 'knocked out' Asleep, Incapacited, cowering other than the reason behind it.

The whole lot could be replaced with incapacited. It you allow multiple conditions then you could have incapacited/stunned, incapacited/afraid and so on.

I have just being reading the Death's Door entry and it is a little confusing.
If seems to me that if one survives the initial roll vs con and remains disable then as long as one only moves there should be no further rolls vs con triggered. So irresprctive of how many hit poitn are lost then no further detoriation is possible. Is this so?

What about futher direct damage?

 

[CuRoi]

Hey, thanks for the comments!

Got you on the site - sorry its a free Joomla template and I (obviously) haven't put much thought into design. I'll try to arrange it so it makes more sense.

To clarify something - Abilities don't bounce. Since each ability has a training modifier (granted from class levels) and a natural modifier (what is granted from your stats) the penalties are just penalties to actions that involve those stats. If you are familiar with 3e, just think of each attribute having a "BAB". Maybe the penalties make more sense then?

3e had a lengthy list of conditions with varying effects. Some gave penalties to Attacks, some gave penalties directly to Attributes, some gave penalties to BOTH attacks and Attributes, some forced you to roll percentile dice.

Take the "Entangled" condition

The 3.5 Version: You move half speed, take a -2 on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on Dexterity. This means you need to adjust your Dexterity Attribute down by 4 and by doing so, you then actually take a total of -6 on Missile attacks and you take a -2 on Reflex saves as well and a -2 on all Dex based skills...

My version: You have -4 on all rolls involving Dexterity, Perception and you move slower. There is no converting "Attribute Points" into "Bonus Points", there's no combining the steps of a flat penalty and converting Attribute damage to a number that you then need to apply to skills, reflex saves and missile attacks. It's just a flat penalty.

The other thing I was trying to accomplish was to roll in several combat penalties into the condition format. So "Prone" could be the equiv of entangled. Uneven terrain? Hindered. No more special rules, just let the players know the condition. They mark a box right there on their character sheet and can refer to it right there until the condition goes away.

As far as the worst conditions all seeming the same, well, many are to a degree. However the source may be important so calling them all "Incapacitated" could be problematic. If a character is "Cowering" then Remove Fear will help them out. If they are Asleep, it won't do anything (but stave off nightmares ).

I'm glad you thought of Zombies for decayed. Posions and Necromantic spells were going to be the root cause of that condition. How is it different from stunned? As you pointed out, different abilities are targetted.

Now should there be more variety to differentiate - yeah, I think thats a good idea!

On Death's Door - looked at it and yeah you are right, it's confusing.

I need to clarify it, but the point should be you need to roll each round. Further damage will incidentally drive you further into the negatives which would make any future Con checks increasingly harder. At some point, your just not going to be able to make the roll and you die.

EDIT *Another note about the Hampered condition. It will hopefully also replace the following various bonuses/penalties/conditions: Squeezing, Prone, Kneeling, Climbing (or any movement which you don't have a move distance for). So it's a three tiered condition that replaces half a dozen or more different "rules" that were spread out between a few books in 3e.

EDIT 2 *For death's door it is possible to remain disabled as long as you only take move actions, but once you do more than that you start bleeding and taking damage thus triggering con checks again. Of course, taking more direct damage (and going furthe rinto negative hit points) will force another Con Defense.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I may not engage further in this thread because you are designing a game that I would not have much interested in playing.

On the web site design, ideally a person coming in cold should know what is going on and once hooked should be able to read the site and create a character, and so on.

Once you are reasonably happy that you have the content for character creation down you should grab a fellow gamer and point them at the home page and have then figure out character creation with no help from you but to talk out loud as to what htey are looking for and what their understanding is of what they are reading.
Make no coments your self and offer no help. If they get it right, you have done a good web design job. If not then back to the drawing board.

When the combat engine is ready repeat with a few more people and see if they can run and encounter.

Lather, rinse and repeat.

Good luck, with the project.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

One More thing!

Is not joombla a bit heavy duty for what you are doing?

Would not straight html and css be better for most of it?

 

[Wiseblood]

I am going out on a limb here because I know there are people who want to see armor as DR... but I don't like DR. Not just here but anywhere it is found I would see it stamped out. Here is how things unfold.

Make attack( d20 + mod)
compare to taget number
if hit is confirmed
roll damage (dX + mod)
subtract DR using total from previous process
subtract damage from hp total

Compare to this.

Subtract target AC from THAC0
Make attack roll (d20 vs result of previous process)
if hit is confirmed
roll damage (dX + mod)
subtract damage from hp total

This is just comparing attacks vs DR (3.Xe) which were not present in every situation.

I guess what I'm saying is DR as presented in d20 is more work for a less balanced solution. (IE magic overcomes DR) Since you could meet the criteria for a hit and STILL not do damage which should not be the case. This has the effect of a redundant nerf vs. martial classes. AC and hit point totals can do the job of protecting.

If a being is supernaturally tough give it more hp. If it has a vulnerability do bonus damage when you exploit said vulnerability.

That would be simpler. If simple is what you are going for.

 

[Valetudo]

I actually would like stats to go the way of the dodo and switch too a complete feat system to improve your attacks and powers as well giving the PC minor abilities.