Ability Checks - Should they be errata'd?

[Gort]

What matters is not the PC's absolute skill check, but his skill check relative to the rest of the party

Agreed. When are we ever going to get into the situation where a level 30 halfling and a level 1 minotaur are adventuring together?

 

[PeelSeel2]

Remember, all challenges scale with level, so the first level challenge and the 20th level challenge for each character are basically the same.

 

[Skyscraper]

4E does not explain every rule down to its simplest details like 3E used to do. 4E assumes that players and DMs use their imagination to fill in the gaps. It is a system that trusts its players.

How does a weak (i.e. low STR) wizard break down a door? Well, wizard-player, *you* tell me how you do it. Explain how those 20 levels of yours in wizardry allow you to channel your power to break down the door. Nothing is written in the books. No rule is explicitly stated anywhere. It is up to you to come up with an explanation. That is what RPG is all about, IMO. (Plenty of examples were provided in this thread.)

In a similar vein, there is the non-lethal damage rule that allows PCs to deal non-lethal damage whenever they want, to knock out opponents instead of killing them. In a game i'm DMing right now, there came the question from the wizard player:

- How can i use my magic to deal non-lethal damage from a distance to the opponent? I have magic missiles and the like offensive spells only.

- Well, i answered, *you* tell me how your magic is used to deal non-lethal damage. Imagine the answer and tell us. For an archer, might it be that he has a few blunt arrows in his quiver? Well, the wizard might be able to weave his spells differently too... What does *your* magic missle do when you want to knock someone out?

- Oh, i see, we have that kind of freedom... Cool...

I hear a lot of would-be anti-4E comments (and i'm not a blind defender of the system) from players that ask "well, how's that possible?"; when the answer is that it is not for the DM to find and give that answer, and that is the gist of it: the player needs to imagine (yes!) how it works to fit the rule. Storytelling is for everyone now.

Sky

 

[PeelSeel2]

4E does not explain every rule down to its simplest details like 3E used to do. 4E assumes that players and DMs use their imagination to fill in the gaps. It is a system that trusts its players.

How does a weak (i.e. low STR) wizard break down a door? Well, wizard-player, *you* tell me how you do it. Explain how those 20 levels of yours in wizardry allow you to channel your power to break down the door. Nothing is written in the books. No rule is explicitly stated anywhere. It is up to you to come up with an explanation. That is what RPG is all about, IMO. (Plenty of examples were provided in this thread.)

In a similar vein, there is the non-lethal damage rule that allows PCs to deal non-lethal damage whenever they want, to knock out opponents instead of killing them. In a game i'm DMing right now, there came the question from the wizard player:

- How can i use my magic to deal non-lethal damage from a distance to the opponent? I have magic missiles and the like offensive spells only.

- Well, i answered, *you* tell me how your magic is used to deal non-lethal damage. Imagine the answer and tell us. For an archer, might it be that he has a few blunt arrows in his quiver? Well, the wizard might be able to weave his spells differently too... What does *your* magic missle do when you want to knock someone out?

- Oh, i see, we have that kind of freedom... Cool...

I hear a lot of would-be anti-4E comments (and i'm not a blind defender of the system) from players that ask "well, how's that possible?"; when the answer is that it is not for the DM to find and give that answer, and that is the gist of it: the player needs to imagine (yes!) how it works to fit the rule. Storytelling is for everyone now.

Sky

What? You mean use your imagination? Shouldn't their be a rule for that or something? Describe an action? Envision the action? Huh.

 

[Jack Colby]

In your example, while Hawking's STR score would be small, his experience would allow him to distract, cheat or befuddle the opponent in some other way so that his low STR didn't matter as much.

 

[keterys]

Carolinus the Archmage studied the door for a moment, then stepped forward and slowly pressed a single digit to a spot. He then leaned in a little and exerted pressure on his finger.

With a sigh, a webwork of cracks spread out from the spot he pressed. A crackling crash later, the pieces of door fell to the ground in puffs of dust.

"It's all about knowing how best to use the resources you possess. Now I believe you also challenged me to arm wrestle? I must warn you: I'll not be held responsible to any damage you, nor your descendants for the next seven generations, may suffer."

 

[functionciccio]

Nothing is written in the books. No rule is explicitly stated anywhere. It is up to you to come up with an explanation. That is what RPG is all about, IMO.

This.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Second, you would have level 30 wizards getting stuck in a room with a wooden door. There are no rules for getting through a door besides breaking it down, blowing it up, or bypassing it. The wizard would be unable to break down the simple door because that relies on Str. He could blow it up, but that would be highly inefficient depending on how many doors you come across. He could bypass it, but that also requires spells or rituals, which are even more time consuming than destroying the door.

In short, get rid of 1/2 level bonus if you want Epic wizards to be unable to open a stuck jar of pickles. Funny? Maybe. Heroic or Epic? No.

Epic wizard not required. Level 1 wizard with magic missile will be more than overkill. If a 5' diameter tree can be taken down in few rounds then a door won't stand a chance, or the rest of the building for that matter.

 

[El Mahdi]

If Stephen Hawking is considered a High-Level character [21-30?], then he better be damn well able to break down that door. A crippled person doesn't get to Epic levels without learning how to move around environments. He could probably use telekinesis to bust open the door. Or maybe he summons a black hole for a micro-nanosecond to obliterate the door. . .

In your example, while Hawking's STR score would be small, his experience would allow him to distract, cheat or befuddle the opponent in some other way so that his low STR didn't matter as much.

As to his character stats -

Since Stephen Hawking would be an NPC (unless Stephen Hawking is playing D&D and wants to play himself), and the 4E DMG says ". . . only give them the things you'll need to run them in an encounter or an adventure." and "Most don't have classes or even roles . . ." (pg. 187), then he wouldn't necessarily have, or even need, a level bonus.

Stephen Hawking would be an expert at certain things, for everything else he would be no different than any commoner NPC with no levels (except with decreased movement).


As a 4E* DM this is what I would use as his info:
*(or actually any edition DM since this concept can be used in any edition with no real shoehorning involved)

Real World:
Stephen Hawking
Master Theoretical Physicist and Mathematician (Fantasy setting: Sage/Seer)

Str: 1
Dex: 1
Con: 5
Int: 25
Wis: 25
Cha: 2/18* (*situational - viewers usually have an extreme reaction when first meeting, whether good or bad, he's never viewed as "average". Usually though, after meeting him, most people see him as quite charismatic.)

Movement: 1

Skills:
Diplomacy: 16/20* (see Charisma)
Insight: 20
Knowledge, General: 20
Knowledge*; Mathematics, Cosmology, Physics, Theoretical Physics, Quantum Mechanics: 50
Knowledge, Teaching: 30
Perception: 20

(in a fantasy setting substitute in Knowledge; Planes, Religion, Arcana, Engineering, Mathematics. Also add some appropriate Arcane Powers and Rituals, and add a couple of new magic items - a Telepathic speaking device and a Telepathically controlled conveyence - cart, wheeled chair, floating chair, etc.)



As to Stephen Hawking overcoming a door - it's obvious, he would either explain to a PC how to overcome the door using Intelligence and exploitation of scientific principles, or, he'd blast it open with a concentrated burst of Hawking Radiation, a unique energy harnessed by him alone (not Telikinesis or any other power or energy - come on, everyone knows this).

 

[Cwheeler]

So the lv30 wizard can easily open a door with a DC of 30 (since his check is +25). But the bigger question is - what DM would, in his right mind, throw such a door in the face of the party? It cannot challenge the wizard, because the party fighter will have a str check of +34 (including his str of 28). To challenge the party, you will want the final DC to be somwhere around +45 - +50 (to account for aid another). So the wizard still has no chance of opening the door in the first place.

As such, the point about a high lv wizard being able to open a door that would stymie a lower lv fighter is moot, because he would never ever encounter such a door to begin with!

This makes the assumption that the wizard would never have to make a check because he would always be in the same location as the fighter... sometimes, characters have to split up Oh, the calamity!