Ability Checks - Should they be errata'd?

[ExploderWizard]

ExploderWizard, i thought the question of wizards having at-will magic missiles had been dealt with in another thread.

The wizard can deal as much at-will damage to a door with his magic missile than a fighter can with his long sword. Get over it already

Sky

Meaning of course that basic attacks can only destroy approved "destructible" scenery. Got it.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Good points...I do agree that you could potentially severely hurt the fun of the game by having epic level characters stopped by seemingly simple obstacles like a jammed door.

Actually, the DCs for everything scale with you as you increase in level. A door may only be DC 20 to break down at level 1, but will be DC 35 to break down at level 30. So epic level characters ARE stopped by seemingly simple obstacles like a jammed doors or slippery slopes. You may ask, what is the point of adding 1/2 level to yoru skills and checks then if the DCs just keep going up for the same tasks. And that's a very good question. I think it's ludicrous. Your level gets higher, the numbers go up, but you never actually get better at performing tasks because the DCs increase as you do.

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually, the DCs for everything scale with you as you increase in level. A door may only be DC 20 to break down at level 1, but will be DC 35 to break down at level 30. So epic level characters ARE stopped by seemingly simple obstacles like a jammed doors or slippery slopes. You may ask, what is the point of adding 1/2 level to yoru skills and checks then if the DCs just keep going up for the same tasks. And that's a very good question. I think it's ludicrous. Your level gets higher, the numbers go up, but you never actually get better at performing tasks because the DCs increase as you do.

Because 'jammed door' isn't the whole picture of the situation.

A jammed door that has a rusty hinge (level 1 challenge) is not the same as a door jammed because the primordial energies that forged it in the Shard of the Abyss have become sentient and actively oppose anything that would defy their grand purpose (level 30 challenge).

The DCs scale with the level of the -challenge- not with the level of the -party.- What you're really doing is scaling the challenges to fit the party.

Jumping across a pit trap doesn't -mean- the same thing at level 1 (it's a five foot wide hole) as it does at level 30 (it's a fifty foot wide bottomless pit with a magic field that creates gravity)


Level 30 characters aren't dealing with jammed doors as challenges, and setting them up with mundane things that don't bother heroic characters is outside the feel, flavor, and point behind the game mechanics involved. Monsters work the same way, they -also- scale as you gain levels, but no one seems to complain because 'scaling' in this case means newer, bigger, badder monsters.

What you need to understand with the DC mechanics is that a DM also has to provide bigger, badder, nastier non-monster challenges too.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The rules for an ability check are found on pg26 of the PHB. It basically states that a situation such as breaking down a door would apply your Strength Modifier + 1/2 level + any other applicable modifier.

My friends enjoy putting the most extreme scenario's in order to illustrate themselves...but it works. So based on this logic, they indicate that Stephen Hawking (high level character based on his experiences in life) would easily defeat a typical well built adult male in arm wrestling simply because he would add his half level bonus to the check.

Is the door stuck? Who needs a level 1 Minotaur when that level 20 dext based halfling has a far greater ability score check.

Can anyone help justify why they get a half level bonus to ability scores? In my mind, 1/2 level bonuses should be removed from all ability score checks. If this was done, would it unbalance or destroy any game mechanics?

The following is a bit of an aside where I get these questions from that people may enjoy:
I play with two D&D groups, my 4e group that I DM, and a 3.5 group who has not played 4th edition and hates the sound of everything <IE; Monsters utilize different rules from PC's, Saving throws are static and don't change based on level, you have to roll for Fort/Ref/Will, no BAB means a wizard can progress in the same manor as a fighter, multiclassing takes feats, classes feel to restricted with choices of A or B rather than anything you want, etc> . As such, I tend to try and defend some of the points they don't like about 4E. The above issue was brought up and I had no defense for it.

For the specific example of arm wrestling: Can you live with a Str8 Halfing beating a Str20 Orc in arm-wrestling? Because that's what you get if you allow rolling at all. If you don't like this, don't roll. Just compare the ability scores, highest score wins, ties result in a roll (and in that case, why shouldn't experience help?). That's a problem already known from 3E.

Likewise, if a 3E Bard uses Inspire Competence, for some reason a character can get stronger and break down a door he normally would have been absolutely unable to break down (regardless of the roll). Can you accept that? Or does it get a free pass because it's a supernatural effect?

It is not described what that half level bonus actually represents in the game world. For a Wizard, it can represent training and experience (like for his Arcana or Intelligence checks) - or it represents subtle magic (or heck, maybe even unsubtle) magic he uses to aid a task. If he breaks down a door, he looks at it closely, identifies the weak spots and speaks a small incantation, that will weaken it for a moment, and then he just has to apply the little natural strength given to him to break it down.
So, the Wizard gets the "free pass" from his supernatural (magic) abilities.

A Fighter making an Int check? He has seen so much, and experienced so much, of course this experience will count for something. Sure, he might not be the brightest man around, but he has learned a few tricks that surprise a less-experienced person, and he might be able to out-plan a Stephen Hawking.

Speaking of Stephen Hawking - this guy is a genius in our world. But he will not fight against Dragons or Ninjaes (unlike Einstein).
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So, he's an NPC that's not even a monster. He can have any modifier in the Science skill I want/need him to have. (Particularly since "Science" is not a skill in the core rules anyway)

If he was a D&D character, he would probably be a wizard. In that case, see above.

I think this explains it well.

I like to use the example of an 8 strength wizard swimming. The wizard doesn't swim well naturally, but he knows the exact body movements to conserve his strength, he mutters a quick magic incantation to boost his swimming knowledge, and oh he's epic....the god of oceans owes him a favor, etc.

In fact, skills and ability checks to me are the hidden power of 4e. Its not as flashy and overt as 9th level spells in 3rd, but the reality of 4e is that an epic level character is just plain awesome in nigh everything he does.


The only thing I don't particularly like about ability checks is my ability to "take 20" on most of them. For example, my current 6th level fighter can destroy any normal ADAMANTINE door if I try enough. I don't mind a character being able to take 10, but taking 20 can lead to even low level characters defeating obstacles that are supposed to be tougher.

Take 20 is the shorthand for "I try until I roll high enough to succeed". Take 10 is actually far more artificial, because it can guarantee a success even in situations where you could not retry anything (and it also guarantees a failure even if you could succeed at a task when rolling).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

my solution in 3rd edition was:

the default assumption is taking 20 as default (a arm wrestling match usually takes some time, not 6 seconds... opening a barred door with force usually takes more than seconds)

but of course you can roll if you want to do such a thing in 6 seconds, but then you can even fail against a weaker opponent (because you underestimate him) or fail to break in a simple door, just because you didn´t tkae time for setting up the right ange or something.

I would rule it as following: you don´t get you +1/2 level bonus for opening a door by running against it until it breaks
but if you use a crowbar to open the door, a bit of experience could help (you know how to set it up properly etc.)

 

[Regicide]

I'm not really a fan of the "awesomeness bonus" as it means you get weird things like not being able to put higher level characters into shackles or jail cells or what have you without the NPCs first checking the PC's level and determining that "oh, we need the super-god-forged-starsteel shackles for this one." To put this another way, there are a lot of in-town situations that often come up (tavern fights, farmer's daughters, mistaken identity, being framed, whatever) and might want to model, but can't, because the PCs are simply too awesome to be tied up or jailed.

 

[chitzk0i]

I'm not really a fan of the "awesomeness bonus" as it means you get weird things like not being able to put higher level characters into shackles or jail cells or what have you without the NPCs first checking the PC's level and determining that "oh, we need the super-god-forged-starsteel shackles for this one." To put this another way, there are a lot of in-town situations that often come up (tavern fights, farmer's daughters, mistaken identity, being framed, whatever) and might want to model, but can't, because the PCs are simply too awesome to be tied up or jailed.

I think that's an intended side effect of the tiers of play. As the PCs reach higher levels, the challenges they face change.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think that's an intended side effect of the tiers of play. As the PCs reach higher levels, the challenges they face change.

Yeah, the idea behind the tiers is that as the characters go up, they're less and less concerned with the earthly challenges and instead ascend to take on stuff that's literally out of this world, moving from saving villiages to saving kingdoms to becoming immortal.

When you're a demigod, should ordinary iron shackles bother you?

 

[Regicide]

It is not described what that half level bonus actually represents in the game world. For a Wizard, it can represent training and experience (like for his Arcana or Intelligence checks) - or it represents subtle magic (or heck, maybe even unsubtle) magic he uses to aid a task. If he breaks down a door, he looks at it closely, identifies the weak spots and speaks a small incantation, that will weaken it for a moment, and then he just has to apply the little natural strength given to him to break it down.
So, the Wizard gets the "free pass" from his supernatural (magic) abilities.

Your example doesn't work since a 20th level wizard still gets +10 on purely physical brute force strength tests even when denied access to magic via a magic dead zone, Stephen Hawking bench-pressing 500 pounds. There are no limitations set on awesomeness bonus so it's not possible to attribute it's source to anything other than the game system itself.