How does the game make this work mechanically? Do parties ever 'get lost' in a dungeon? Is there 'get lost' check that you have to make when in a dungeon? What could possibly happen to a party with no dwarves that they just spontaneously get lost in a dungeon? What actual tangible benefit does this provide? Just curious.
Ability scores figured out.
How does the game make this work mechanically? Do parties ever 'get lost' in a dungeon? Is there 'get lost' check that you have to make when in a dungeon? What could possibly happen to a party with no dwarves that they just spontaneously get lost in a dungeon? What actual tangible benefit does this provide? Just curious.
DogBackward
First Post
It was pointed out to me on the WotC boards that the stats still make sense if Hill Dwarves are a +1 Constitution race, not +1 Wisdom. And given that Mountain Dwarves are +1 Strength, that does make much more sense. Changed it.
Stonecunning allows them to always retrace their steps in a stone setting (like most dungeons).
In some types of dungeons, yes. Really big dungeons that aren't mapped well, or maze-like dungeons.
If the dungeon is hard enough to navigate, I'd call for an Intelligence or Wisdom check, yeah.
With a good DM? Almost anything. Off the toppa my head? Pit trap leading to underground tunnels filled with Basilisks. (Dark Knight Kirk is optional)
Not getting lost.
Stonecunning allows them to always retrace their steps in a stone setting (like most dungeons).
In some types of dungeons, yes. Really big dungeons that aren't mapped well, or maze-like dungeons.
If the dungeon is hard enough to navigate, I'd call for an Intelligence or Wisdom check, yeah.
With a good DM? Almost anything. Off the toppa my head? Pit trap leading to underground tunnels filled with Basilisks. (Dark Knight Kirk is optional)
Not getting lost.
For the Mountain Dwarf, I would not rule out the possibility that he gets a bonus to wisdom instead of strength -- the stats could be made to work out either way.
If the bonus is to wisdom, Wizards would avoid the inevitable question that would come up when the character creation rules come out as to why the dwarf from the sub-race with the strength bonus was not made a fighter and the dwarf from the sub-race without the strength bonus was made a fighter, even though the elf and the halfling obviously did come from sub-races whose ability score bonuses lined up well with their classes.
So my guess, until there is proof otherwise, is that the mountain dwarf gets a bonus to wisdom and not strength.
If the bonus is to wisdom, Wizards would avoid the inevitable question that would come up when the character creation rules come out as to why the dwarf from the sub-race with the strength bonus was not made a fighter and the dwarf from the sub-race without the strength bonus was made a fighter, even though the elf and the halfling obviously did come from sub-races whose ability score bonuses lined up well with their classes.
So my guess, until there is proof otherwise, is that the mountain dwarf gets a bonus to wisdom and not strength.
Humans are described in D&D as jack-of-all-trade.
But getting +1 to all abilities isn't that. jack-of-all-trade means that you are good in everything but best in none. this way human is as dexterous as an elf, though as an dwarf, strong as an orc. that way human is BEST in everything not just good.
Nice way to balance that is to give human +2 in the lowest score rolled or two lowest(depending on number balancing). that way human can't get equal in prime ability of a given race but has no bad sides and can be GOOD at everything.
But getting +1 to all abilities isn't that. jack-of-all-trade means that you are good in everything but best in none. this way human is as dexterous as an elf, though as an dwarf, strong as an orc. that way human is BEST in everything not just good.
Nice way to balance that is to give human +2 in the lowest score rolled or two lowest(depending on number balancing). that way human can't get equal in prime ability of a given race but has no bad sides and can be GOOD at everything.
babomb
First Post
Well, for example, a passage might be subtly sloped upward or downward so that you unwittingly end up on a different floor. Or, unbeknownst to you, some portion of the dungeon rotates. Or some of the labyrinth walls shift. You have therefore drawn your map incorrectly and while trying to use it to get back become lost. Or, less subtly, you fall down a trap door to another level and have no idea how deep you are.
In 2e, a dwarf could at any time while underground ask for a check and roll 1d6 to detect the following within 10':
grade or slope of passage on a 1-5
new tunnel/passage construction on 1-5
sliding/shifting walls or rooms on 1-4
stonework traps, pits, and deadfalls on 1-3
approximate depth underground on 1-3
DogBackward
First Post
It's possible, I suppose. It fits with 4e.
Eh, this isn't a big deal. The Fighter needs Constitution, and the battle-Cleric needs Strength, so it's not like they have to put them in primary-focused classes. Add to that that this combo shows off that you can be just as effective with a 15 in your attack stat. That's something that people coming from 4e are going to have to learn fast.
Seems like a very minor benefit, for two reasons.
1) It's very DM-dependent. It's almost entirely up to the DM to make sure this ability sees any use. This is as opposed to something like an improved ability score (how on Earth is any DM going to run a game in which your Strength Score for example never comes into play) or even something like magical or poison resistance which Dwarves traditionally have. Your chances of fighting a magic or poison using enemy seem to me much greater than your chances of the DM employing a specifically labrynthine dungeon with moving walls and deceptively sloping passageways.
2) Suppose the DM does design or employ a labyrinth type dungeon just so that the dwarf player has a chance to shine. Great. But unfortunately on the way to the dungeon the party is ambushed by Wandering Monsters and 3 ridiculous rolls in a row later, the dwarf is dead and the dwarf player decides to play an elf this time for his new character. Now the party is dwarf-less for the labyrinth. Now what? The party gets hopelessly lost and gets TPK'd due to starvation? Or they just cannot advance at all? Or the DM allows the party to somehow compensate for not having a dwarf in their party and so the actual fact is that the party never needed a dwarf in the first place so the dwarf's special ability is actually totally superfluous.
#2 actually sounds a lot like my objection to rogues as skill-monkeys, or wizard utility spells, or whatever. Abilities that are required for the plot to be advanced are actually useless, because it's not like the DM is simply going to rule that the plot does not advance if the party does not have access to those abilities for whatever reason. These sorts of abilities require a very clever DM to specially design things so that the player can get some use out of them if they have them, but that the plot can advance as normal even if the party does not have those abilities. So in the very best case scenario, these sorts of abilities put quite a lot of pressure on the DM which is not exactly ideal imo.
Similar Threads
