Ability Scores (Heroic Array)

[Celebrim]

"If that's what you want, go ahead. but it's alot better than 4d6 drop one."

Except that in 4d6 drop one, you can cheat.

I'm been a DM for 20 years now. It's amazing how many players cheat almost every throw of the dice. There is almost always one at every table. Abilities are the thing that gets cheated the most as a percentage. Initiative is the roll that gets cheated the most often. I've had players report to me two dozen 20+ initiative checks in a row, before I finally got tired of it.

I don't know what it is. I was even a player in one group where pretty much everyone in the group (but me) had cheated thier ability rolls, and it seemed like everyone had like 4 18's and nothing under 16. So the DM just ruled that every NPC in the game had all 18's in every ability score - with the ultimate result being that not only were the characters not exceptional but below average. And yet, the players seemed completely happy with this, and to even prefer the game that way.

It must be some wierd pyschological thing. I don't get it though.

 

[FireLance]

While charisma can affect characters it doesn't affect mechanically, in my experience it rarely does. This is different than a character's alignment (which we won't be using, as this is AE) which would frequently come into play.

I've made Charisma matter mechanically in my games, but my method requires the use of action points.

If you're not familar with action points, the basic idea is that every character has a pool of action points, and can choose to spend one action point once per round to get a +1d6 bonus to any d20 roll (attack roll, skill check, saving throw, etc). There are other uses for action points, but I won't go into that now.

A 1st-level character gets 5 + Charisma modifier action points (a 1st-level character with Charisma 1 gets no action points). Every time he gains a level, a character's number of action points refreshes (unspent action points are lost) to 5 + 1/2 (new character level) + Charisma modifier.

Action points allow a character a better chance to "get lucky" when he really needs it, and as such, charismatic characters in my games are mechanically "luckier" than the rest.

 

[Technik4]

Let me just point out that 4d6 and 7 drop lowest aren't 'generous' rolling tecniques at all. They're what 3rd ed assumes is average amongst player characters.

Not according to pgs 169-170 of the DMG. To clarify, the method was:

Roll 4d6 for each ability score, re-rolling 1s
Roll 7 times, dropping the lowest score altogether
Anyone can use anyone else's stats (only 1 person needs to roll high, and every campaign someone would get an 18,16,16,14,14,12 or something).

My point was, they are used to high stats. Most of the techniques in the DMG are significantly more painful: 3d6, 6 times (no customization) being the worst (it even says resulting in 'virtually unplayable' characters); 5d6, 6 times (with customization) being the best.

Technik

 

[Technik4]

Is that low-charisma fighter standing right next to Mr. Charisma all day and all night?

'Tis true, they aren't, however in my experience there are 2 kinds of Mr. Low Charismas:

-The ones who rarely contribute anything to an NPC reaction, occasionally spark side-quests and roleplaying, but mostly want to sit back and have fun in combat and then leveling and dividing loot. They aren't detracting from anyone's experience if they are more interested in roleplaying, but they personally don't have 'fun' doing so. Their nature could be catalogued as low charisma in many cases, so they are playing what they know.

-The ones who see it as an indictment to be bastards. They strive to come off sounding tactless and uncouth, though usually not to the extreme to get the party in major trouble. They heckle enemies, are the first to make fun of an NPC name (or the name of anything - town, river, etc), and generally have an elitist attitude. Again, sometimes this is the person's nature, and they are playing what they know. In my experience, these people aren't trying to detract from anyone else's game (its not done excessively, and they usually shutup when something important is happening), but rather they are unable to fully immerse themselves in the game.

Both of these might be considered 'bad roleplayers' by the members of this site. I could even see your argument to an extent. But, imo, the entire purpose of this game (like most) is to have fun (not attain a perfect roleplaying group). If people act that way and the rest of the group and the DM revel in the same stuff, then everyone's having fun - D&D was a success.

I guess I see Charisma as some people see 'Role-playing penalties'. 3e went with the notion that Mechanical bonuses should not be penalized by Roleplaying penalties, yet that is just why Charisma is the dump stat, for the majority of PCs created (again, excepting ones that want HIGH charisma, like bard, sorcerer, etc).

Technik

 

[Technik4]

But go ahead; name one member of the Fellowship with below average charisma.

To be honest, I think Tolkien's characters are a bad example of this. The fellowship would certainly be hard to stat using something like 28 pt buy, in any case. But consider these fantasy archtypes:

-The lone swordsman meets some friends and vanquishes evil, at the end of the story, goes back to being a loner.

-The churlish rogue, locked in a dungeon for crimes, is freed by former companions or people who need his skills. He remains in the group despite people generally disliking him, and eventually moves on (or the group helps him change from his former ways, and he probably gains some charisma).

Another thing I'd like to point out is that charisma is far less useful than it normally is (and at this point, we might as well say 'useless') to someone who wishes to play an atypical race. Playing as an Orc, Gnoll, Kobold, etc is possible with a regular group, but you won't ever find social acceptance from a town or city.

Technik

 

[Goobermunch]

Here's the answer to the problem of the Charisma dump stat: shift Will saves to Charisma, since it seems to make more sense there. Then add sanity damage. Base that off of Wisdom. Now, PCs have a motivation to put high scores in all their mental abilities.

--G

 

[Seeten]

The pure fact that Charisma mechanically beneficial for Sorcerors and Bards and Clerics and Paladins, though, is awesome, because it allows everyone else to dump their cha. Err, wait a second.

I'm a leader in my daily life, and so, in D&D, I am expected to be the high cha character, also, as everyone looks to me, and my character to make the decisions. It causes me to lack a dump stat, which makes even less fun.

I've begun dumping dex. As a fighter, I can wear massively thick armor and ignore the "max dex" penalty. As a Mage, I can buff up spells, and stay in the back. As a barbarian I can hit you so hard you cant hit me back. So, I am forced to dump dex.

My poor monk. Man, no dump stats. That was rough.

 

[Magonus]

Or maybe you were refering to the movies, with lying decietful impish hobbits, nervous and vacillating Strider, Boromir the psychotic, Gimli the ridiculous, and so forth.

*Gulps, embarassed to be the one gamer who doesn't like Tolkien's writing and never finished the books*

 

[ThirdWizard]

My point was, they are used to high stats.

Why not tell them to try out a 32 point buy? Or do you think they wouldn't play? Really 32 point buy is fairly powerful.

 

[Crothian]

Why not tell them to try out a 32 point buy? Or do you think they wouldn't play? Really 32 point buy is fairly powerful.

Heck ya, my 30 point buy character is pretty darn good.