D&D 1E About the Asian contributors to Oriental Adventures, or Who even were these guys?

[Panda-s1]

I just can't picture the folks at TSR going out of their way to mail a manuscript to Japan in the pre-internet days unless they were looking for cultural insight. If all they wanted was playtesters or editors, surely there were plenty of those available without the expense and hassle of sending international packages.

okay, if you actually read what I posted you'd see that D&D was first published in Japanese in 1985, the same year OA came out. publishing a book in a foreign country in a foreign language usually involves a lot of correspondence, so it's not like they didn't have the means necessary to ask "hey could you have some Japanese players take a look at this stuff and see what they think?" while they're at it. though now that I think about it, that makes the level of input look even worse.

They probably didn't have the same level of expertise for other Asian cultures, in fact, being Japanese is no guarantee that they were even experts on Japanese history or culture any more than your average American is an expert on their history and culture.

this also doesn't address the fact they're still just a Japanese group of players. as everyone has said before "Asian people aren't a monolith!". I know it sounds cynical, but while this group may have had a decent to surprisingly amazing level of expertise on Japanese history I don't expect the same level of expertise for other Asian cultures.

Oriental Adventures was produced for entertainment purposes and wasn't designed to stand up to any sort of academic rigor.

So why does it matter whether or not they were experts? And what is the minimum standard to be considered an expert in this context?

if it's bad, then why bend over backwards to defend it? there's a lot of material now that is probably not only better but coincidentally stands up better to academic rigor. you can still buy OA second hand, but it's just a curiosity at best at this point.

also I don't think you understand the level of influence a product made for entertainment purposes can have. if this was someone's only view into Asian culture it's going to skew how they view Asian culture. this isn't to say it's wrong to gain knowledge or insight via entertainment, but to do so without realizing the context of it can lead to skewed results.

 

[jayoungr]

okay, if you actually read what I posted you'd see that D&D was first published in Japanese in 1985, the same year OA came out.

I did miss the date, sorry.

publishing a book in a foreign country in a foreign language usually involves a lot of correspondence, so it's not like they didn't have the means necessary to ask "hey could you have some Japanese players take a look at this stuff and see what they think?"

I assumed that was exactly what they did. Are you saying you think that probably isn't what happened?

 

[Panda-s1]

Cook's forward to OA does a bit to address why so much of the focus was on Japan, and why some others didn't get as much. In part it was the sources available apparently, and in part it was how interesting he could make them seem for a game given the sources. (The intro by Gygax also seemed interesting.) WotC - Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

In a pre-internet age, for a company the size of TSR, it doesn't feel reasonable to me to expect them to have gathered a bunch of expert opinions on all of the different cultures. Maybe other game publishers were doing far more in the early 1980s, but it feels like they did quite a bit more than would have been expected as far as being aware and sensitive about the issues for the time.

Of course, even if true, having done more at the time than expected doesn't make a book useful or appropriate by today's standards.

yeah, I know the book is the way it is partially due to how it was rushed, I get that. but apparently getting a bunch of expert opinions is what Gygax was going for? idk, if they couldn't get the resources they needed then they should've just scrapped everything but the part they knew was good and published a book about a Japanese setting. it'd probably be seen as just a dated, but kinda cool artifact of it's time and not be anywhere near controversial.

...that is unless they took this book about a Japanese setting and slapped the name "Oriental Adventures" on to it anyway! I'm looking at you 3rd ed. OA ):<

 

[Panda-s1]

I did miss the date, sorry.


I assumed that was exactly what they did. Are you saying you think that probably isn't what happened?

no, I'm saying that's probably is what happened, they probably said "hey we have correspondence in Japan, maybe we can get some advice from Japanese people?" and then decided a playtest group was good enough. I know they were under time constraints, but getting a book translation done takes time, they could also have tried to ask "hey we want to make a book about a Japanese setting, do you think you can reach out to a professor of Japanese history for advice?"

and it might have happened! we don't know, and again they were on schedule, and also a budget so asking a Japanese professor for help might have ended up being more than they could pay*. I'm just pointing out that despite circumstances, when it comes down to it these 5 players being the only Asian contributors to D&D is kinda sad.

*actually, now that I think about it, were these players even paid for their work??!

 

[Cadence]

*actually, now that I think about it, were these players even paid for their work??!

I'm guessing no one at the time would have thought about it. We're how many years later and finally looking down on asking artists to contribute art for free for exposure? Were any of the folks in Arneson and Gygax's gaming groups paid for all of their vital work? Do playtesters ever get paid.

 

[Panda-s1]

I'm guessing no one at the time would have thought about it. We're how many years later and finally looking down on asking artists to contribute art for free for exposure? Were any of the folks in Arneson and Gygax's gaming groups paid for all of their vital work? Do playtesters ever get paid.

I mean QA testers get paid, but like I said in my post these guys got more credit than a QA tester could ever hope for

 

[Cadence]

okay, if you actually read what I posted you'd see that D&D was first published in Japanese in 1985, the same year OA came out. publishing a book in a foreign country in a foreign language usually involves a lot of correspondence, so it's not like they didn't have the means necessary to ask "hey could you have some Japanese players take a look at this stuff and see what they think?" while they're at it. though now that I think about it, that makes the level of input look even worse.

Would it have been as useful to have Japanese players from Japan look at it as Japanese or Japanese-American players in the US?

yo, okay, there's a huge difference between Asians in Asia and Asians, like me and Kwan, who didn't grow up in a primarily Asian country. an average Korean person living in Korea can go to work with almost entirely other Korean people. their day to day interactions are almost entirely with other Korean people. they'll watch TV and hey! mostly Korean people are on TV. they might watch some fantasy show that has a lot of tropes that people here might find contentious, but that's okay because virtually everyone they know understands that it's just a fantasy and nothing real.

that's not the case for me. I'm an Asian (and Latino!) person living in America, a lot of work teams I've been on I'm the only visible minority, I mostly interact with other white people in my day to day interactions, and if I see an Asian person on TV they're usually gonna be a weird stereotype and not at all a regular cast member. keep in mind I also live in a part of this country with a noticeable Asian American population.

the fact that you're trying to point to Asians from Asia as proof OA is okay says that you don't really understand the underlying issues here. I'd suggest reading about the "perpetual foreigner" stereotype to understand why it's messed up for you try and invalidate my opinion because those Asians don't take issue with it.

----

And I completely agree with your sad reply on my post right above this one :-(

 

[MGibster]

if it's bad, then why bend over backwards to defend it? there's a lot of material now that is probably not only better but coincidentally stands up better to academic rigor. you can still buy OA second hand, but it's just a curiosity at best at this point.

I didn't say OA was bad. In fact, OA was very well received upon release and I enjoyed the heck out of it back in the day. What I said it was OA was not designed to stand up to the rigors of academic standards. And when it comes to entertainment, I'm not all that concerned about academic rigor. The very fact that I play in any D&D setting is proof positive that academic rigor is not a primary concern.

also I don't think you understand the level of influence a product made for entertainment purposes can have. if this was someone's only view into Asian culture it's going to skew how they view Asian culture. this isn't to say it's wrong to gain knowledge or insight via entertainment, but to do so without realizing the context of it can lead to skewed results.

Even in 1985, the idea that OA would have been anyone's only view of Asian cultures is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Cadence]

Even in 1985, the idea that OA would have been anyone's only view of Asian cultures is a bit of a stretch.

I'm trying to think what 14 year old me knew about it - Sign of the Chrysanthemum, a few comics with Sunfire and Silver Samurai, flipping through Deities and Demigods, Karate Kid, Shogun, and an occasional scene on M*A*S*H? And now I'm googling what I forgot about those to see how problematic they were.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

I'm guessing no one at the time would have thought about it. We're how many years later and finally looking down on asking artists to contribute art for free for exposure? Were any of the folks in Arneson and Gygax's gaming groups paid for all of their vital work? Do playtesters ever get paid.

There were 1.5 million "playtesters" for D&D Next. I don't think any of them got paid. I sure didn't. And I was ok with that.