About to Become a Killer DM......

[Xzuatl]

Hey I feel your pain.
Last session my players had the final encounter of a side adventure. They were severely outnumbered, but they had complete suprise. The came up with a half-baked plan which pretty much revolved around peppering them with missle fire. They cast no defensive spells what so ever before hand. No bless, aid.. nothing.

The thing is I warned them before the encounter about the high mortality of it as well as at the onset of the battle when they could have run away. The result was , out of 8 players, 4 PCs dead and the other 4 had to run away sheding armour and weapons as they went.

My point I guess my point is that if your BBEG encounter is going to be the first one they really could lose, then it probably will be. PC death is the only way to keep players on their toes, otherwise they lose their sense of danger.

My two cps

 

[Nail]

Hey I feel your pain.
Last session my players had the final encounter of a side adventure. They were severely outnumbered, but they had complete suprise. The came up with a half-baked plan which pretty much revolved around peppering them with missle fire. They cast no defensive spells what so ever before hand. No bless, aid.. nothing.

That's what I'm talkin' about. Just bump things up a bunch of levels, and you're talking about my group an' this wednesday's meeting.

The party has 5 spell-casters....out of 6 characters! They have mucho potential for "prep spells" beforehand. I'm ....concerned that several PCs will not avail themselves of the opportunity to "prep".

Just for giggles, here's the group (1 player/PC):
Wiz 17
Drd 17
Psi 16
Sor 17/Clr 1
Rog 17/Ftr 2
Mature Gold Dragon

....yep, one of the players is playing a mature gold dragon. His only problem: all of the ceilings in the Clockwork Caves are 5 feet high. (I'll let you work out what form he has to stay in while traveling the 'Caves. Does this crimp his breath weapon? Why yes -- yes it does.)

The "dream" idea is good, but won't work, given the set-up. Thanks anyway, ForceUser!

 

[Joshua Randall]

You've deliberately chosen an environment that nerfs a lot of high-level abilities (5' corridors, no divination, no conjuration, enhanced abjuration) -- and then you wonder why the PCs aren't planning well. The PCs are not bothering to make well-oiled machine-like plans because the environment is set up to thwart them. Loosen the shackles.

 

[Nail]

You've deliberately chosen an environment that nerfs a lot of high-level abilities (5' corridors, no divination, no conjuration, enhanced abjuration) -- and then you wonder why the PCs aren't planning well. .

You mis-judge me. I'm wondering how best to hint to the players about preping.

Moreover, the same restrictions from the plane apply to the BBEG. It's a level playing field. Are you saying there's no way to pull this off? That it's hopelessly tilted against them?

 

[Stormborn]

I disagree that the demiplane is causing the players to not plan. If anything I would think that limited options would be a way to force MORE planning. It doesn't sound like the players have said "You have made this too hard and so we don't care anymore and are going to do whatever."

However, I do think that the final confrontation should probablly take place somewhere with a little more room to manuever. If someone has bothered playing a dragon PC (using levels from Dragon Mag for Dragons?) you shouldn't penalize him too much, especially for the Big Climactic Sceen. A nice dynamic enviroment, with lots of moving gears and pendulums to watch out for but with cover opportuniteis and big enough to manuever in, sounds like fun. And again forces the PCs to use tactics and planning to operate.

 

[dogoftheunderworld]

Or as they make their way down the final hallway to the BBEG chambers, they notice his collection of Holy Avenger swords mounted along the wall, with their owners skulls

Or the remains of the Pit Fiend who used to be his right-hand man until he spilled wine on the BBEG's mother's white table cloth....

(and of course appropriate signage: "Death live here, please wipe your boots on the mat")

 

[Joshua Randall]

Moreover, the same restrictions from the plane apply to the BBEG. It's a level playing field. Are you saying there's no way to pull this off? That it's hopelessly tilted against them?

It's a level playing field, but not one in which I would want to adventure.

No divinations? I can't gather information in order to plan effectively.

No conjuration? I can't summon allies. I can't teleport.

So, that leaves... blasting spells and melee. But I can't do those effectively because of the cramped, 5' corridors. I can't maneuver to flank. I can't fly (or I can, but there's no point because the ceilings are so low). I can't stand off at long range and lob fireballs.

I think "charge and hope for the best" is a perfectly rational response to these contraints.

 

[Nail]

I disagree that the demiplane is causing the players to not plan. If anything I would think that limited options would be a way to force MORE planning.

That's the idea, anyway. I'm only human too, after all, so it's possible I've botched this set-up.

If someone has bothered playing a dragon PC (using levels from Dragon Mag for Dragons?) you shouldn't penalize him too much, especially for the Big Climactic Sceen.

True!

Actually, he's actually playing a full mature Gold dragon. No "dragon PC" levels. Straight up -- see page 85 of the MM, thanks.

You see, his PC (along with one other PC) was kidnapped at the beginning of all of this. The PCs (plus the former NPC, now new PC gold dragon) are trying to find and recover him. Getting to play the Gold Dragon is the consolation prize.

 

[Nail]

I think "charge and hope for the best" is a perfectly rational response to these contraints.

Really?????

 

[engrishonly]

You see, his PC (along with one other PC) was kidnapped at the beginning of all of this. The PCs (plus the former NPC, now new PC gold dragon) are trying to find and recover him. Getting to play the Gold Dragon is the consolation prize.

Capture is fun. It allows for the possibility of redemption after a suicide run.

Capture and corruption... that possibility has always intrigued me as a DM. What if the BBEG can turn one of the captured PCs?

...

At some point, the BBEG becomes less Big & Bad if you allow for too much survival. Like Cobra Commander in G.I Joe, and COBRA in general... how can you take them seriously if they lose all the time?

It has to cost your PCs something to get out, if they can get out... but they seem to want to recover their friend, and this should be something that they should be allowed to do.

What if the captured PC turns and helps the BBEG (the plausible deniability that allows the other PC's to escape with their ego intact)? What if the party loses, and the captured PC somehow sacrifices himself to save the party from doom? This PC sounds like the cause of this confrontation... seems like he should fit into the ending of it as well.