Abstract HP

[Andor]

Chris Sims's article makes it clear that the Official position on HP is that they are abstract and represent luck or skill at dodging or somesuch. In all the history of gaming this has never made one damm bit of sense in systems like D&D where the PCs gain HP by the bucketload as they level. Why? Because all the luck in the world will not explain why my dwarven fighter can survive orbital re-entry.

I, as a player, can always back the GM into a corner where he has to either admit the system does not portray abstract HP, or he has to break the rules in order to kill my character to preserve the illusion of squishyness on the part of high level characters.

So why is everyone so married to a concept which requires so much active collusion, winking, and handwaving between GMs and Players to preserve an illusion that few people pay much attention to anyway? I can come up with viable in game explanations for HP all day long, and I doubt that the design team at WotC has less imagination than I do, so why is this idea so pervasive?

Let's be honest here. If we wanted to play a game where a few guards with crossbows actually worried our PCs we would be playing WHFRP or GURPs or Fantasy Hero or freaking Amber. Obviously we dig the concept of PCs who rapidly pass out of the realm of mere mortal toughness and into the realm of the action movie badass or superhero.

Why won't we admit this to ourselves? :\

 

[Slander]

To be fair, falling is probably the worst example you can make when describing unrealistic HP. The problem of surviving orbital reentry isn't the description of HP, its the rules for falling, or specifically, the damage received at the end of a fall.

For the most common types of damage I come across, luck, skill, resolve, and general bad-assery better describe my ever growing pool of HP than physical toughness. Honestly, I have a harder time believing my 10th level character can ignore 30 arrows sticking out of him than I do 2 arrows sticking out of him with 28 other grazes, deflections and close calls.

 

[Delta]

Why? Because all the luck in the world will not explain why my dwarven fighter can survive orbital re-entry.

This has always been the clarion call of people looking to tinker with D&D's core hit point system. Proper solution: Fix falling damage. Bad solution: Bolting on new mechanics like "massive damage" rules and stuff like that.

My preferred solution: Cumulative falling damage (1d6 at 10', 3d6 at 20', 6d6 at 30'...), from Gygax in 1E Unearthed Arcana, 1985. Pretty simple.

 

[The Human Target]

I'm cool with abstract hitpoints.

I am not cool with getting stabbed in the arm and poisoned from a monstrous scorpion's stinger, when the same attack from a goblin would have "reflected off you shield, but still causes you to lose 3 hitpoints."

 

[DreamChaser]

And besides, your dwarf can't survive orbital reentry...for a few reasons:

1) suffocation from the initial vacuum and until you get enough air (reaching the ground can take as long as 40 minutes from 120 km up and the usable atmosphere stops at about 50 km). even with a Con of 35, the best a dwarf could manage would be about 10 minutes before dying.

2) cold from near vacuum. being below -20 degrees F, this means 1d6 lethal damage per minute plus additional fatigue and nonlethal damage. this goes away after the real atmosphere starts so you'd only take about 10d6 damage.

3) heat from compression on reentry. 1d6 lethal per minute (man this is generous) for 30 minutes (plus the 1d4 nonlethal damage). as what we are really dealing with is all the air around you starting on fire, you should take burning damage which means 1d6 per round (DC 15 Ref. negates) which is 300d6...even if you succeed 2/3 of the time that is still 100d6 over time.

4) finally, impact 20d6

If you dwarf can survive that, I'd be impressed and I'd also say that luck and resilience (and magic) played a major role.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

I'm cool with abstract hitpoints.

I am not cool with getting stabbed in the arm and poisoned from a monstrous scorpion's stinger, when the same attack from a goblin would have "reflected off you shield, but still causes you to lose 3 hitpoints."

Try this on:

The scorpion's stinger scrapes across your arm, you turn most of the blow but still a trickle of blood appears and feel the burn of the poison on the scrape. (you take 3 damage...make a fortitude save)

DC

 

[The Human Target]

Try this on:

The scorpion's stinger scrapes across your arm, you turn most of the blow but still a trickle of blood appears and feel the burn of the poison on the scrape. (you take 3 damage...make a fortitude save)

DC

Its still the same problem, just more nicely worded.

Its not a huge deal, but it does strain the HP system for me a little.

I'm partial to having characters not get hit that often and when they do its a physical bloody wound, or separating skill/luck hit points and and actual wound points.

Which I know is an optional rule, but I'd like it or something similar to be core.

 

[Jhulae]

I've always had a problem with HP, but when playing D&D, it's just one of the things I have to put up with. There's no really elegant way of reflecting damage in D&D with all the other tropes that occur in the game (such as armor preventing one from being hit, not reducing the severity of the hit).

As abstract as it is, for D&D, it does seem to work okay.

 

[~Johnny~]

Hit points as "will to live" or "main character-ness" get weird in corner cases like poison, but they work just fine 95% of the time.

I really enjoyed the wound point/vitality point system in Star Wars, which balanced survivability with the fact that actually getting hit once with almost any Star Wars weapon would kill or cripple you. In lightsaber combat, the moments where you have to exert all your strength to keep the opponent's blade away from your neck, that's vitality.

I actually think 4e represents an improvement over 3e in that regard, because it provides a similar "vitality/wound" split in the form of being "bloodied" at half your hit point total. Until half hp, the DM just needs to describe bruises, scratches, and stuff that makes you short of breath. After half hp you start getting mauled (though a burst of "luck" or "energy" can keep you going when a true healing spell isn't available).

Chris Sims's article makes it clear that the Official position on HP is that they are abstract and represent luck or skill at dodging or somesuch. In all the history of gaming this has never made one damm bit of sense in systems like D&D where the PCs gain HP by the bucketload as they level. Why? Because all the luck in the world will not explain why my dwarven fighter can survive orbital re-entry.

There are several documented cases of people falling from planes and surviving, particularly in WWII. So, yeah, luck. (Though they probably weren't wearing plate mail...)

Besides, any good houseruler doesn't let PCs survive terminal velocity falls.

 

[BASHMAN]

If HP is a bunch of "close calls" up until the moment you get killed, how does the person using the Heal skill have any effect on you? Afterall, you have not even been scratched-- just came close a few times.

I would assume, however, that a critical hit is ALWAYS actual, physical damage--- not handwavium. Therefor, the Warlord should not be able to just tell you to "walk it off"-- since that sword gash won't magically close itself. Same goes for a 200' fall, or 20 rounds in an acid bath.

But if we have to define the source of the damage, and have only certain types of healing affect certain sources of damage, that would be pointlessly complicated, especially when they are trying to scale back the system. In my opinion, it'd be best to have damage = damage (not "stress" or your luck running out), and healing = healing. People who don't have magic cannot magically heal you.

Instead, maybe a Warlord can inspire you to be able to fight with more negative HP, or reduces your penalties for being bloodied, or something like that.