Abstract HP

[Simon Marks]

I feel compelled, nay - required to post this;

Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit point represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to fill four large warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are a symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

Any guesses where thats from?

1st ed AD&D players handbook, page 34.

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

When discussing abstract hit points, people usually bring up luck and skill. One factor that gets left nearly all of the time, but was mentioned in the 1st edition rulebooks, is divine favour. So when your character survives that ridiculous fall, maybe it's because he's earned the favour of Gehron-Emo, God of Falling From Absurd Heights.

 

[loseth]

So, it seems that the only places where people really suffer disconnects with abstract HP are poison, healing (specifically, calling it 'healing' instead of something more narratively appropriate) and falling. That doesn't seem like a long list of stuff to fix.

 

[simply not edible]

As for the falling damage example up there:

There happens to be such a thing as terminal velocity on any planet with an atmospher. Friction from the air you're falling through makes it so you can't exceed a certain speed, which will vary depending on the planet's mass and the thickness of the atmosphere.

Add to that that it's not so much the falling that damages you, as the sudden deceleration syndrome when you hit the ground, and this SDS is tied to your speed, there is a very logical (and scientifically sound) reason for falling damage to be capped.

The fact that your character can survive such a fall (if not from actual orbit, for reasons given above), comes mostly from the fact that your high-level character is supposed to be larger than life. I don't know if you've ever read it, but that whole essay about legendary humans being something like 5th or 6th level (I don't have the link ready, but it's flying around somewhere on these forums, I'm sure), further explains this. Also, Simon Marks just now has The Good Point.

He can soak it, because he's able to do loads of stuff that would be impossible to you and me.
...
Well, maybe not me... I dive off planes without parachutes all the time...

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

I am not cool with getting stabbed in the arm and poisoned from a monstrous scorpion's stinger, when the same attack from a goblin would have "reflected off you shield, but still causes you to lose 3 hitpoints."

But that blow that reflected off your shield can just as easily given you a dead-arm for a second. A moment's respite, a word of inspiration form your leader, or even just the mage rubbing the feeling back into it is enough to get it back. If HP is about 'survivability now' then it doesn't need to be actual tissue damage, just the inability to get your shield in front of the next blow. And the options to recover 'survivability now' are endless. Fear of being killed, inspiration, love, a good massage, stitches, divine healing, a good meal, a shot of tequila...

 

[Engilbrand]

The world is magical. Characters, especially high level characters, spend a lot of time around magic. They either cast it or wear it. It suffuses their very beings. This is why I have no problem believing that higher level characters can jump 40 feet or survive falling off of a cliff. Their bodies have been reinforced.

 

[DonTadow]

There are some factors as to why hit points exist. In an "only mortal wounds" count system the pcs and enemies dance around and miss for a lot of rounds until one hits. This can be quite boring. In the current system it seems unrealistic that a person can be slashed with a sword 15 times a day and still be okay. Of course, if you're doing the abstract method, it leads to boring descriptions and in reality you guys are always missing each other and only the final hit makes it.

(BTW doesn't 4e contradict itself by having a bloodied condition. The description bloodied implies previous damage)

Considering there's magic that cure's allwounds, I'd rather describe most of the hits as real damage, but underplay the severity. The closer something gets to death, the more dismal hte description. A PC at 80 percent strength gets a nick on his hand. A pc at 20 percent strength has a gouge in his gut.

My description slightly varies for the npcs though. Because npcs who like to fight like to konw thy're fighting i'm a little more over the top.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I think it has to do with the suspension of denial. There seem to be a lot of people who just can't accept the idea that a high-level character is supernaturally tough. The idea of for example, a fifteenth level barbarian with 130hp being able to survive being hacked and slashed with swords/etc a dozen or more times and keep going, breaks their suspension of denial because they know it's not possible in reality. I just don't get it because to me that's at the core of what the leveling system means, that characters start out within the realm of quasi-plausability and grow into something possible on in myth.

Beyond that as the OP noted the system itself has never actually supported abstract HP, they were a form of handwavium for those unable to accept that characters became supernaturally tough as they leveled. Once you actually got down to brass tacks attempting to say HP were abstract always created major contradictions in the mechanics. But the only contradiction to HP as physical damage is the unwillingness to accept that the characters can survive damage because in the real world such damage should be fatal.

 

[Vayden]

I think some people are confused here because they assume that "healing" from a cleric is automatically knitting wounds closed etc. Why can't "divine healing" be doing the same thing the Warlord is doing - rebuilding your resolve and strength to fight.

A pretty good example of this is Harry Dresden from the Dresden Chronicles - he's always getting beat within an inch of his life in the big fights, and then something lets him get back on his feet for the last round. Sometimes he just reaches deep down inside himself, thinks about how important this is, and staggers up for one more (second wind), sometimes he chugs a potion he made ahead of time (magic healing item), sometimes someone yells at him to get back on his feet and act like a wizard (warlord healing), and sometimes a magical faerie butterfly lands on his hand and fills him with strength and vitality (divine healing). In all of these cases, he's down to 3-10 hp, because he's (pick one): bloody and bruised/completely drained of magical energy/has just been given a concussion/had his will drained by evil magic/just had an explosion detonate a few feet away. All the kinds of "action movie damage" DnD talks about when they talk about hp - things that leave you vulnerable to death and are very dramatic, but aren't literal wounds that your regenerating monster of a "hp=damage" character is ignoring.

 

[cwhs01]

In 3.x HP damage as wounds (nearly) works at level 1. It very quickly falls apart when pc's increase in level. A level 5 barbarian with 50 HP can take ~10 blows from a longsword before really feeling the hurt.
So suspension of disbelief is seriously compromised above level 1, if you do not see HP as an abstract measure of "will to live".

Ingame it can be described any way you want to. ex.:
5 HP damage to a fighter is a gracing flesh wound. Easily ignored when he gets angry enough (second wind).
5 HP damage to the wizard just barely misses him. A near miss that could have been lethal makes him just a little more hesitant next time he's in combat. Hesitating in combat gets you killed. The warlord can easily bolster his confidence with a few choice words of encouragement putting him back in the fight.

But this whole thing "HP is an abstract measure of vitality" is not a new argument. I find it very strange that people use this in arguments against the new edition.