Abstract HP

[xechnao]

The first part makes perfect sesne, the rest baffles me.

If what matters to you as a PC is your level -not just rules wise but also fluff wise as it will be a matter of direct relation to the divine powers- d&d then becomes a game of roleplaying archetypes that seek to rise to godhood by killing monsters.
A role playing game like this does not make much sense from my point of view.

Higher level cleris spells IMO meant that the cleric could now better apply and control the powers of a dity he is expert of-since he is the one to choose who to cast the spell on.

 

[Dausuul]

Which puts HP into the ball park of Abstract and not always actual physical damage.

Not at all. If you get stabbed in the throat, you may only lose a few hit points, but you die just the same. It's like dying from poison or energy drain.

Actually, in D&D he would have had a saving throw. It's been a while since there have been poisons that automatically affected you. As I mentioned earlier, a successful save against the poison can just as easily have been the attack didn't hit, but still caused non-physical "damage."

True. On the other hand, it's a Fortitude save, which makes no sense in the context of determining whether the attack "hit" or not--that should be a Reflex save. Plus you'd have to make the exact same saving throw even if the attack also knocked you into negative hit points, which clearly is a hit. And then there's your Armor Class, which is supposed to represent your ability to avoid taking a hit (either by dodging or by deflecting with armor), but now it's sharing that duty with hit points... To make this approach work, you have to push more and more statistics out of their clear and sensible definitions and into the realm of vague abstraction.

Then, too, there are plenty of other "rider" effects that don't grant saves. Energy drain for example--yes, I know, you get a save 24 hours later, but you still suffer the negative levels in the meantime.

 

[JDJblatherings]

If what matters to you as a PC is your level -not just rules wise but also fluff wise as it will be a matter of direct relation to the divine powers- d&d then becomes a game of roleplaying archetypes that seek to rise to godhood by killing monsters.
A role playing game like this does not make much sense from my point of view.

that is one way peopel do in fact play the game ; I find it tasteless in genral but it is a way the game can be played. But that isn't what I meant earlier I meant it isn't the cleric that decides or controls 'how much impact' but the divine forces themsleves and that is why there is an odd relation to getting a bunch (proportionally) of hp restored when you are 1st level from CLW and few when you are 8th level.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Not at all. If you get stabbed in the throat, you may only lose a few hit points, but you die just the same. It's like dying from poison or energy drain.

Getting stabbed is HP damage usually isn't it? If hp aren't abstract then a 200 hp character would seldom have to worry about the hold person spell as a foe would drop from exhuastion as they whittled away at the 200hp and woudl likely have to deal with mr 200 hp's friends before long. But when they are helpless all those hp don't matter becasue they aren't an absolute measure of physcial condition they are an abstract capacity to avoid death but when that abstract factor is removed they die.

 

[xechnao]

I meant it isn't the cleric that decides or controls 'how much impact' but the divine forces themsleves

Yes, it's what I got first place. And this is why I quoted you. IMO, this makes no sense and I tried to explain so. Now, if someone agrees with my point of view, this means that your way of explaining HPs as abstract skill, luck and toughness due to how healing spells work, does not stand.

 

[Dausuul]

Getting stabbed is HP damage usually isn't it? If hp aren't abstract then a 200 hp character would seldom have to worry about the hold person spell as a foe would drop from exhuastion as they whittled away at the 200hp and woudl likely have to deal with mr 200 hp's friends before long. But when they are helpless all those hp don't matter becasue they aren't an absolute measure of physcial condition they are an abstract capacity to avoid death but when that abstract factor is removed they die.

Hit points are how tough you are physically. No matter how tough you are physically, a slit throat kills you. That's why hit points don't matter against a coup de grace--because the CDG is not (usually) killing you with hit point damage, it's killing you with a special effect.

If you have 200 hit points and get coup de graced by an average guy with a dagger, you do not take 210 points of damage. You take 2d4 points of damage and have to make a Fort save. Fail that save and you die, but you still only took 2d4 points of damage.

On the other hand, if you get paralyzed and fall off a cliff, you take the same amount of falling damage you normally would, even though you can no longer act to protect yourself. And if you land in acid, you take the same amount of damage from that, too. Or if a giant throws a rock at you, or any of a million other things.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Yes, it's what I got first place. And this is why I quoted you. IMO, this makes no sense and I tried to explain so. Now, if someone agrees with my point of view, this means that your way of explaining HPs as abstract skill, luck and toughness due to how healing spells work, does not stand.

It includes divine favor(or attention) also it isn't just the charcters own trained capacities.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Hit points are how tough you are physically. No matter how tough you are physically, a slit throat kills you. That's why hit points don't matter against a coup de grace--because the CDG is not (usually) killing you with hit point damage, it's killing you with a special effect.

If you have 200 hit points and get coup de graced by an average guy with a dagger, you do not take 210 points of damage. You take 2d4 points of damage and have to make a Fort save. Fail that save and you die, but you still only took 2d4 points of damage.

On the other hand, if you get paralyzed and fall off a cliff, you take the same amount of falling damage you normally would, even though you can no longer act to protect yourself. And if you land in acid, you take the same amount of damage from that, too. Or if a giant throws a rock at you, or any of a million other things.

a boulder falls on a charactetr with 100 hp inflictign 35 points of damage, the charcter survives and can continue on.

A boulder falls on a charcetr with 9 hp inflicitng 35 points of damage the character is squashed flat and dies.

The 100 hp character didn't not get squished like Wil E. Coyote lift the boulder off of himself and continue on because he didn't take the same physical damage that the 9 hp character did.

Tie up either one and drop a boulder on them and the character is dead. Becasue there is no capacity for oneself to change the situation and divine favor and luck are worn out when one is in such an awful situation.

 

[Xethreau]

If you dwarf can survive that, I'd be impressed and I'd also say that luck and resilience (and magic) played a major role.

DC

ROFL! Quoted for truth! [/proponent of abstract healing and HP]

 

[Dausuul]

a boulder falls on a charactetr with 100 hp inflictign 35 points of damage, the charcter survives and can continue on.

A boulder falls on a charcetr with 9 hp inflicitng 35 points of damage the character is squashed flat and dies.

The 100 hp character didn't not get squished like Wil E. Coyote lift the boulder off of himself and continue on because he didn't take the same physical damage that the 9 hp character did.

Or 35 points of damage isn't enough to squash either character flat. Instead, it inflicts a severe concussion, internal bleeding, bone fragments in the brain, and assorted other injuries. The 9 hp character does what any normal human being would do and dies in seconds. The 100 hp character gets to his feet, wipes the blood out of his eyes, and keeps on going, because he's Just That Tough.

Tie up either one and drop a boulder on them and the character is dead. Becasue there is no capacity for oneself to change the situation and divine favor and luck are worn out when one is in such an awful situation.

No, the character is not dead. If a tied-up character takes damage from a source that isn't a coup de grace, that damage goes to hit points just as it normally would. It does not result in an insta-kill. You may house-rule otherwise if you like, but it's not in the D&D rules, nor is it a house rule I have ever seen in actual play.