Abstract Mass Combat in D&D/D20

[Melkor]

Hi folks,

I was reading through the Dragonlance: War of the Lance hardback book, and it lists troop stats for the various Dragon Armies while explaining that the stats can be used with a number of available D20 products which detail mass combat.

I used to really enjoy the War Machine system in the D&D Companion boxed set because it was abstract, and required no battle mat or playing pieces.

I was wondering if there are any products out (for 3.5) that contain decent rules for abstract mass combat in D&D. I'd like to find something that will involve the player characters and allow them to take part in the battle, and suffer the risks.

Is there anything out there like this ?

Thanks.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I was wondering if there are any products out (for 3.5) that contain decent rules for abstract mass combat in D&D. I'd like to find something that will involve the player characters and allow them to take part in the battle, and suffer the risks.

Is there anything out there like this ?

I'm partial to Fields of Blood myself. You don't need minis or a battle mat, but a map is nice to show which unit is where.

Heroes of Battle has a refreshingly interesting narrative system...think of the battlefield as a big dungeon, where the heroes run around doing the stuff that heroes do, which can and will include wading through swarms of peons, but not always. The armies facing off with each other is reduced to background scenery, while the focus is still on the players, which, really, is where it should be. It works a lot like the battle scenes in LotR, if you think about it; you could easily divide Helm's Deep or the Pelennor Fields up into a number of smaller encounters that the named characters go through.

This also has the advantage of not having the plot derail because the XI Legio Ultima gets destroyed due to a lot of poor die rolling.

Brad

 

[Storyteller01]

Quint. Fighter from MPG. My copy is 3.0, but I believe that there is a 3.5 update out there.

The 3.0 version still works though. Converts the unit into stats comparible with a single character/critter. Makes interaction between characters and units much easier.

 

[Melkor]

Thanks for the response.

I looked at Fields of Blood on their website, and it looks like it uses hex-map and counters. I'm looking for something completely abstract (which isn't rooted in a map-based system I will have to modify).

I think I own Quintessential Fighter for 3.0, and have it in storage somewhere...I'll have to check. I'm not sure if those books were updated to 3.5, but I know they came out with Quintessential Fighter II. Not sure if it has the same material as the 3.0 version, only updated, or not.

Since I would like to look at any and all systems out there, and pick the best one for my needs, any other suggestions for Abstract Mass Combat Systems ?

Thanks again!

 

[Storyteller01]

I think I own Quintessential Fighter for 3.0, and have it in storage somewhere...I'll have to check. I'm not sure if those books were updated to 3.5, but I know they came out with Quintessential Fighter II. Not sure if it has the same material as the 3.0 version, only updated, or not.

Look under OMCS (Open content Mass Combat System) if you find your copy.

 

[Yair]

The most abstract system, and a very brief one, that I know of is Grim Tale's Mass Combat, cheap and makes a lot of sense but fairly course grained and you need to wrap your head around it.

A clarification:
While I've heared good things about other systems, I feel GTMC is the most abstract. In fact, it may be too abstract.
Essentially, the only significant statistic of your unit in the GTMC is its CR/EL. That is all. Oh, it gets complicated but the system uses EL much like the olod War Machine used BR. And EL is much easier to determine for 3e creatures.
Of course, CR/EL is also very granular. You will NOT be able to properly model the benefit of properly versus cheaply arming your army, for example.
But it is far more simple then the unit-based systems that extend the d20 mecahnics to a mass scale. Much more abstract, too.

 

[S'mon]

I still use the OD&D War Machine. I have Fields of Blood but its unit-generation is horribly fiddly and it doesn't look like an abstract system to me.

 

[Khairn]

I know Cry Havoc is not very "abstract", but it easily allows for PC involvement and risk in mass combat.

 

[Buzzardo]

Hi folks,

I was reading through the Dragonlance: War of the Lance hardback book, and it lists troop stats for the various Dragon Armies while explaining that the stats can be used with a number of available D20 products which detail mass combat.

I used to really enjoy the War Machine system in the D&D Companion boxed set because it was abstract, and required no battle mat or playing pieces.

I was wondering if there are any products out (for 3.5) that contain decent rules for abstract mass combat in D&D. I'd like to find something that will involve the player characters and allow them to take part in the battle, and suffer the risks.

Is there anything out there like this ?

Thanks.

I am very glad to know that DL took this approach to handling the question of mass combat. I just finished writing an adventure path campaign (The Cult of Yex campaign due out in December from Troll Lord Games. It's d20) where 2 major battles take place. I took a similar approach.

I struggled for a while handling this. Eventually what I ended up doing was writing a "10,000 foot strategic view mass combat system" that only deals with the stratic movement of troops, and not the granular level of individual troop statistics, seige engines, spells and whatnot. This was to put the PCs in the position of "generals" and let them call the strategic shots in fast paced play. The outcome of their strategic efforts then affects the flow of the story going forward. But basically the "big battles" play out in half an hour, instead of a weekend tabletop miniatures battle.

But... I wrote in other options for DMs and groups who might not prefer the battle system I had written. On the easier side of things, I recommend sort of a diceless narration, where the DM simply described the action, and let PCs respond. He judges outcomes based on his subjective interpretation of their verbalized strategy.

On the more complicated side I recommended that the DM take some basic unit compositions and with work could go ahead and lay out a full blown tabletop battle lasting who knows how long: Here is the relevant snippet, which I beleive answers your question of systems available:

"If you like, with some preparation you could dramatically enlarge the scope of the war and play it out with any number of mass combat systems with which you might be familiar. There are many different options available to you for conducting this battle including, but not limited to, sources like The Miniatures Handbook by WOTC, Cry Havoc by Malhavoc Press, Fields of Blood by Eden Studios, The Black Company by Green Ronin, your own homebrew system, etc… "

 

[hexgrid]

I used to really enjoy the War Machine system in the D&D Companion boxed set because it was abstract, and required no battle mat or playing pieces.

I think that, with a bit of modification, the War Machine system itself would work fine with 3e. I wonder if anyone has tried this.