Accountability

[TiQuinn]

First of all, I'm not going to say that I expect anything.

I donated some money to help keep my favorite website around. Period. If it goes the way of the dodo, I'll be bummed. However, I'm not expecting full accountability now that I've chipped in. I give my money to a lot of places, businesses, etc., and there's always the chance that they won't be around at some point.

That said, I'm surprised that ENWorld doesn't cover it's own bills as a non-profit. I'm surprised that it isn't run for profit. From my standpoint, it's the most recognizable RPG website outside of Wizards of the Coast. That maybe pretty far from the actual case. It's just my perception.

I expect server and hosting fees to be an issue for any website/message board. If you can't cover these costs, then there's not much of a reason to continue unless you have the money to continue it out of your own pocket.

But it's a bit weird to hear that things like Morrus is behind on paying people back for the ENnies, or that ENworld doesn't generate much revenues.

Hey....If ENWorld can't pay for itself, then no one has any business putting on award shows with cute little statues.

Frankly, I wouldn't have heard of half of the d20 products/publishers out there if it weren't for ENWorld. THAT has to be worth something.

If ENWorld can't pay for itself, then someone is getting a REALLY sweet deal, and it isn't Morrus. I'm getting a free website and message board with some great discussion, information, reviews, and ideas. Publishers are getting some awesome publicity. It's tough to fathom that it can't cover its own costs.

I don't know...when I look at it afterwards the whole thing doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Morrus]

In month 1, when you could not pay the bills, where did you think you were going to make it up? Where was the windfall coming from?

Easy. As mentioned, I believed I would have a full time job in short order and was willing to cover the cost of running th site out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as I had expected.

Now things are different. I did not expect to raise so much money and so, naturally, I hadn't planned in advance on doing so; I'm just taken aback by this sudden turnaround in events. As yet, there is no specific plan for the money because I want to take the time to make sure I use it as best possible. Right now I don't know what that is, but I'm confident that, given the breathing space we have now that Cyberstreet has been paid $2000, there is time to think about it, not rush any decisions, get advice etc., and come up with something good. But it ain't gonna happen quickly, and it ain't gonna be rushed!

Right now, I have a hundred people offering me different, often conflicting advice. I'm being flooded with emails from people who can't understand why a $20 per month hosting plan on a shared server somewhere isn't appropriate for this site, and who think that $400 per month is a really bad deal.

So, folks - right now there is no plan! Right now, there's just a very shocked Morrus who needs some time and space to think about things.

 

[BSF]

I don't think that it is unreasonable to maybe want a "state of EN World" address every now and then. I think Russ now sees that if he asks for resources he can get them when he needs them (that may have been in question in his mind -- I know both he and I thought raising the $1600 would be impossible even if we had a week; plus who likes begging for money, hat in hand? That's no fun even if it is necessary.) So I think certainly there's been a lesson learned that being more open about upcoming financial problems would be helpful. Is this basically what folks are asking for?

What I _really_ want is to know that Morrus is enjoying EN World as much as the rest of us. I don't want him to have to worry about where the bills are being paid for the site and how it is going to affect his personal life. He should be prudent and responsible about it without the gut eating worry.

Any ideas that move toward that are good. A "State of EN World" Address may help in that regard.

 

[Dimwhit]

Easy. As mentioned, I believed I would have a full time job in short order and was willing to cover the cost of running th site out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as I had expected.

And you shouldn't have to cover the costs out of your own pocket. Either the site generates enough money through ads and such, or we pony up and pitch in. You shouldn't be paying thousands of dollars a year for the site. Nice of you to be willing, though.

 

[Mark]

Maybe a forum could be set up where the folks helping Morrus and the admins can do what they have to do, those who donate could have read-only access and send in an email if they have suggestions (to avoid a lot of side-tracking and clutter) and if someone wants to properly join the team they can send in their resume for consideration.

 

[Henry]

If ENWorld can't pay for itself, then someone is getting a REALLY sweet deal, and it isn't Morrus. I'm getting a free website and message board with some great discussion, information, reviews, and ideas. Publishers are getting some awesome publicity. It's tough to fathom that it can't cover its own costs.

I don't know...when I look at it afterwards the whole thing doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not privy to any special ENWorld financial info (depsite the fact that some people may think the mod's are), but I'll share my perspective from the outside a moment:

ENWorld generates funding in three ways:

1) Community Supporter Accounts. Those weren't selling well the past few months, to my knowledge - the ones that were selling were a trickle, if my observation of new people with the words "community supporter" or having a custom title were any judge.

2) Banner ads. Many Dot-coms of the 90's went BROKE placing their faith in Banner ads. They weren't selling but for short runs - you don't see many long-running banner ads up at the top, do you?

3) EN Publishing. Any PDF publisher can tell you it's not something you do as a way to get rich. I don't know the finances, but judging from RPGNow and RPGShop top sellers, it doesn't look like a runaway sales hit, either.

Add to that leaner times in early 2003, the fact that the business model changed from "full-time" to Hobby only a few months ago, and ventures like the ENWorld Player's Journal that have not shown a serious profit (according to some statements from Ryan Nock about changing the publication), and you have a business that Morrus has been self-supporting (I'm assuming through previous savings, or a series of bank or personal loans; that ain't my business). Meanwhile, ENWorld is a resource available for free to anyone who wishes to use it.

What's my point? Don't have one, really, other than to say that Russ shoulders an awful lot that he shouldn't have to, because like TiQuinn said, Russ ain't the one getting the sweet end of this deal lately. The intake is going to have to change to break even, somehow, and I've seen a lot of good ideas being thrown around (Mistwell was among the first I've seen laying the groundwork for discussion), and a lot of community members with professional experience volunteering their time and advice to help see the community never has to shut down.

Russ is going to have a plan, he's already stated he's going to take some careful thought on the next move, and I for one am letting him know I'm here to bounce ideas off of, and giving him plenty of room to move. That's all.

 

[BSF]

Easy. As mentioned, I believed I would have a full time job in short order and was willing to cover the cost of running th site out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as I had expected.
Now things are different. I did not expect to raise so much money and so, naturally, I hadn't planned in advance on doing so; I'm just taken aback by this sudden turnaround in events. As yet, there is no specific plan for the money because I want to take the time to make sure I use it as best possible. Right now I don't know what that is, but I'm confident that, given the breathing space we have now that Cyberstreet has been paid $2000, there is time to think about it, not rush any decisions, get advice etc., and come up with something good. But it ain't gonna happen quickly, and it ain't gonna be rushed!

Morrus, I really appreciate that you want to run the site out of your own pocket. I'm just not sure that is the best long-term plan. This has become a community and I think it is time for the community to take a little more active notice of what it takes to run the show. That's probably why I think an annual or bi-annual fund drive is a good idea. It serves to remind everyone that this place doesn't just stay running by itself. And, as I have said, (probably many times in the last day or so) I don't like the thought that you have to worry about this. Worry and stress do terrible things to the body and mind.

I know you will make informed decisions. I know that everything will work out for a while. I just want to help to continue making it work out for a long time to come.

 

[EricNoah]

Another option for a hobby site -- which this is now, it's no longer really a business site -- is to become part of a big network, like I did with RPGPlanet.com. Benefits are that you aren't paying for stuff out of your pocket. Drawback is you're running other people's ads for them, and as we saw there were limits to "how much" of their server we were allowed to hog with our popular forums. (They would literally just shut them off from time to time.) If donations don't support the site, then maybe there is a group out there willing to shoulder the burden (and reap any potential benefits).

 

[Dimwhit]

I'm not privy to any special ENWorld financial info (depsite the fact that some people may think the mod's are), but I'll share my perspective from the outside a moment:

ENWorld generates funding in three ways:

1) Community Supporter Accounts. Those weren't selling well the past few months, to my knowledge - the ones that were selling were a trickle, if my observation of new people with the words "community supporter" or having a custom title were any judge.

2) Banner ads. Many Dot-coms of the 90's went BROKE placing their faith in Banner ads. They weren't selling but for short runs - you don't see many long-running banner ads up at the top, do you?

3) EN Publishing. Any PDF publisher can tell you it's not something you do as a way to get rich. I don't know the finances, but judging from RPGNow and RPGShop top sellers, it doesn't look like a runaway sales hit, either.

Add to that leaner times in early 2003, the fact that the business model changed from "full-time" to Hobby only a few months ago, and ventures like the ENWorld Player's Journal that have not shown a serious profit (according to some statements from Ryan Nock about changing the publication), and you have a business that Morrus has been self-supporting (I'm assuming through previous savings, or a series of bank or personal loans; that ain't my business). Meanwhile, ENWorld is a resource available for free to anyone who wishes to use it.

What's my point? Don't have one, really, other than to say that Russ shoulders an awful lot that he shouldn't have to, because like TiQuinn said, Russ ain't the one getting the sweet end of this deal lately. The intake is going to have to change to break even, somehow, and I've seen a lot of good ideas being thrown around (Mistwell was among the first I've seen laying the groundwork for discussion), and a lot of community members with professional experience volunteering their time and advice to help see the community never has to shut down.

Russ is going to have a plan, he's already stated he's going to take some careful thought on the next move, and I for one am letting him know I'm here to bounce ideas off of, and giving him plenty of room to move. That's all.

Good points, all.

I still stand by my original suggestion (which since then, a lot of people have wanted to do) of having an annual pledge drive or something. We could EASILY raise enough money to pay hosting fees and other miscellaneous fees for an entire year doing that. At $400/month, we'd be looking at just shy of $5000. I don't know how much the other expenses are (like the Ennies and such). But with planning and products available for various bid threshholds, raising the money annually would be cake. If we can get 16k in a day with no advanced notice, we can do a third of that with planning and products available.

Anyway, I'll stop. It's Morrus' site. Let's let him figure out what he wants to do. I think he knows by now that if he wants/needs help, he has only to ask.

 

[Michael Morris]

Remain calm.... Breath...

Beyond all things I hate someone who donates and then thinks they are entitled. This site, this endevour, this community, costs money. Money to this end is appreciated. Strings attached are not.

I won't say I wasn't fustrated when I learned that Russ had let himself get $1600 behind in the bills. Having been in similar circumstances, let me say that these things never happen intentionally and they tend to snowball. But demanding that some form of accounting be set up to deal with this problem is rude and lacking in tact.

There does need to be accounting on this - but not because Russ can't be trusted as you - ahem - gentlemen have implied. Rather, when money changes hands, governments want a cut. jbrowning has already pointed this out and apparently he has a relative who is a qualified professional in these matters.

I have recommended to Russ directly that he should set ENWorld up seperate from himself - not because I don't trust him but because should ENWorld go belly up for any reason I don't want Russ' personal finances and credit to be dragged into it. He has worked too hard for this.

If Russ wishes to "open the books" or involve others in making budget decisions, I think it would be a wonderful idea. But I don't think he should pressured to do this at the point of a bayonet.

Now, I have more to say on this matter, but it isn't Granny safe.