Actually, our opinion does matter.

[Morrus]

In other words, the ENWorld poster is a more informed end-user, and as such, a more valuable source of feedback.

Now I believe that would be a mistake. Considering outliers to be more valuable than the larger representative portion sounds like a classic error to me. The most valuable source of feedback is that from your most typical customers, not your most informed, or the richest, or the most vocal, or what-have-you.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

You misunderstand me. We are the vocal minority. The silent majority is out there playing whatever games they want to play.

We're also very self-selected, and thus ot representative. We represent exactly only one thing: RPG gamers who on the whole tend towards D&D and like to join internet communities concerning their hobby.

One thing that makes this entire conversation difficult is "who's the target market for D&D?"

See, WotC has used the number "6 million" for the number of D&D players. It's not been specified which edition that is, but WotC did use 6 million as part of its legal proceedings against the file sharing/copyright infringers for the 4E books.

Now, I personally get the strong impression from both WotC and the fans of 4E that one of the large components of 4E is the internet. The tools are online only, you have to have a DDI subscription to get anything other than the most basic of "product support" (as people refer to new bits being published)... everything seems to say that the target market is online.

So looking at the number of people that hang out at ENWorld and looking at WotC's strong focus on the online segment, I'm personally of the opinion that actually... the people at ENWorld might represent a minority of the rpg hobby, but they're _supposed_ to be representing a significant portion of the D&D game. And if the people of ENWorld _aren't_ representing it... there's a flaw/breakdown/problem somewhere.

Either that or WotC has done a magnificent job of catering to the D&D side of things on their forums; given how they've redone them a number of times and there's a fair number of older WotC threads you can't find/get at because of the changes, I'm not 100% convinced of that.

 

[Morrus]

Now, I personally get the strong impression from both WotC and the fans of 4E that one of the large components of 4E is the internet.

I think it's becoming that way, and has been doing so gradually for the last decade.

Which is great news for people like me who make their living from that very phenomenon.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I think it's becoming that way, and has been doing so gradually for the last decade.

Which is great news for people like me who make their living from that very phenomenon.

I'm a bit ambivalent myself. It means that if you don't have easy access to the internet, you're basically not important. That's also an evolving fact of life, but it irks me when the hobby moves that way. Especially given that NZ for example has internet caps on everything. That just ups the barrier to entry/continued participation even further.

The thing is though, this means there's less room for apologists in my book. WotC screws up online stuff, has a crappy marketing campaign, ignores forum discussion about problems... you can't say, "Oh well, the online community only represents a tiny fraction..."

At least, that's my opinion. If they're targetting the market, they need to be responsive to it as well.

 

[Morrus]

I'm a bit ambivalent myself. It means that if you don't have easy access to the internet, you're basically not important.

What do you mean by "important"?

I remember when I was 13 or 14 having no idea whatsoever that there was a world of RPGs out there. Me and my friends, with our pencils and graph paper and tattered 1E books pretty much existed in a bubble of our own (in RPG terms). We certainly didn't feel important - but more importantly, we didn't feel any need to feel important. We just wanted to play this cool game we'd stumbled across.

I'd agree that the internet has taken some of that mystery and magic away. Sometimes piercing the veil is not such a good thing.

 

[MrGrenadine]

Now I believe that would be a mistake. Considering outliers to be more valuable than the larger representative portion sounds like a classic error to me. The most valuable source of feedback is that from your most typical customers, not your most informed, or the richest, or the most vocal, or what-have-you.

Well, I agree, if you define "outliers" in this case as the richest, or the most vocal. But I fail to see how reaching out to the most informed would be a bad idea.

In other words, if the larger population are casual gamers that occasionally play D&D, and the outliers are people that have played 4e and other editions of D&D more than the average, and who've used competing products more than the average, the outliers may be a segment of the customer base with the system mastery and knowledge about D&D and other RPGs to actually give specific, constructive critique and suggestions to the design team.

Maybe. I understand that the outliers we're referring to may not be any more qualified to give critique as any casual gamer. There is also the situation of the outliers amongst the outliers here.

In any case, I'm not suggesting the ENWorld community should be the only feedback, or that everything an ENWorld poster types be copied and pasted into the PHB. I just agree with the OP that critique and suggestions from the knowledgeable and experienced should be taken seriously.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

What do you mean by "important"?

I remember when I was 13 or 14 having no idea whatsoever that there was a world of RPGs out there. Me and my friends, with our pencils and graph paper and tattered 1E books pretty much existed in a bubble of our own (in RPG terms). We certainly didn't feel important - but more importantly, we didn't feel any need to feel important. We just wanted to play this cool game we'd stumbled across.

I'd agree that the internet has taken some of that mystery and magic away. Sometimes piercing the veil is not such a good thing.

"Important" in the sense that "if you don't have access to the internet or an internet connection, we don't care if you play our game or get involved in the hobby or not."

I had a longer reply prepared, but... I'm actually just going to step out of this thread. I can't see having anything to contribute at this point.

 

[TheUltramark]

I saw posted upthread a few numbers and I want to throw out a few more to revisit my point that coastwizards has little to zero interest in our (message board die hards fans) opinion.

Let's say you took the top 10 d&d themed message boards and counted all the regular posters, and even the semi-regular ones too. Let's call that number 50,000.

Let's say the 6million player number coastwizards throws around is inflated, too. Let's call that 5,000,000

looks like we make up 1% of their base ( and by the way, that is a very generous number)

I think there are WAY more people who are perfectly content with 4E than anyone realizes.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

reading the mile long posts in this thread, I came to recall a neat story from the then head of ABC Roone Alredge when asked about starting up Monday Night Football in 1970. Someone asked him "what about die hard football fans?"

his answer blew me away, he said as serious as could be "F--- them, they're watching anyway, my job is to reach out to find a bigger audience"

bottom line, when they come out with 5th edition, we'll all buy it (we meaning us message boarders and die hard fans)

Didn't buy 4e, so no.
Won't buy 5e if it is like 4e, so no.

WotC probably thought that I would buy anyway, but if so then they were wrong.

We 'all' won't buy it.

Some of us, perhaps many of us, will. But all? Not the chance of a soggy snow cone on the flaming tombs of Dis.

The Auld Grump, we 'all' here are not all 'die hard fans'. Some of us think that 4e is just not D&D anymore. Generalities, by their nature, are almost always false.

 

[Ourph]

In other words, the ENWorld poster is a more informed end-user, and as such, a more valuable source of feedback.

I don't know how ENWorlders could make that claim, given that we are playing exactly the same game as everyone else. We have no special access to information about how the game works. The guys who play weekly games and have DDI subscriptions but don't post to messageboards are just as likely to be informed as anyone else. The only thing that is really special about ENWorlder feedback is that it's readily available online; whereas the guys who do their talking about the game around the kitchen table are more difficult to reach.