AD&D 2e kit with C&C classes

[Turanil]

Oh well, it's just for the sake of discussion, as I don't intend to run anything Castle and Crusades. Anyway, I have the C&C boxed set (# 300 please!) and will someday buy the PHB as well.

So in reading various threads about C&C I do see people who complain that C&C classes cannot be customized, and that some people thus think of adding in 3e feats. Then, I do read how much it is easy to convert D&D 1e and 2e stuff to C&C. Well, among my fifty 1e and 2e rulebboks, I have a lot of "Complete Handbooks". I was wondering if using some kits (probably not all of them would fit) of AD&D 2e to customize C&C classes wouldn't be an interesting idea? At least instead of using feat, that would make for a more different C&C than one trying to catch up with D&D 3e.

 

[Krieg]

I think you'll see at least some resistance to this idea as the folks who C&C is targeted at are primarily ones who were very unhappy with 2e.

The main problem with the kits (as written) is that the various kits vary wildly in the benefits that are received vs any penalties. There is very little balance between the various complete x books & templetes therein.

It might be easier to just sit down and create a number of templates that could be applied to each class (and let's face it kits really aren't anything more than templates in the first place).

 

[Particle_Man]

I'd say with a little tinkering, 2e kits would be easy to pull off, as class variants. Figure out what the base class(es) to be modified is/are, figure out what class abilities would be dropped, and what class abilities would be added, and you are ready to go. If the new kit is too powerful, ramp up the experience point cost to gain levels. If the new kit is too weak, ramp down the experience point cost to gain levels.

Note you likely won't have an exact match, but could convey the idea of the original kit fairly easily.

Crusader magazine is likely to have some class variants already, so kits could drop right in there.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm skeptical. 2e kits are by far unbalanced, mainly if you play a party of mixed kit PCs with non-kit PCs.

 

[Akrasia]

There should be rules, I think, for 'customizing' character classes, or coming up with class variants, in the CKG.

As for using 2E kits, I think Particle Man's suggestions are fine. Just use your judgement to make sure that any benefits are balanced by disadvantages (or experience penalties).

For an example of some class variants, check out the C&C wiki: http://castlesandcrusades.editme.com/

People are also posting ideas over at RPG.net all the time.

For what it is worth, here is a 'specialist priest' I have been developing for my campaign:

Priest of Vanimos.

The deity Vanimos dwells in Godsland. He generally keeps to himself, and is known as the 'finder and keeper of secrets and lore'. His followers seek knowledge, and generally try to keep it as well. They adhere to the dictum that 'knowledge is power'. While most of his followers are scholars, sages, and wizards, he has a small clergy devoted to the finding and keeping of knowledge.

Priests of Vanimos are standard clerics except for the changes listed below.

Alignment: neutral, neutral good, or lawful neutral. While Vanimos himself is neutral, he disapproves of evil, and chaos is hardly conducive to the orderly acquisition of knowledge.

Restrictions: Priests of Vanimos are trained only in the armour and weapons of rogues. They also cannot dispel undead. They must choose INT as an additional prime. Only humans and dwarves revere Vanimos.

Advantages: Priests of Vanimos gain the following rogue abilities at one-half their cleric level: hide, move silently, and open locks. They also gain the bard's lore ability (also at half their cleric level), but use INT for lore checks, and their lore is generally of an 'academic' nature (i.e. is unlikely to concern current politics, etc.). They also have access to certain 'divination' spells normally restricted to wizards [this list to be finalized later].

 

[Breakdaddy]

Ugh, no plz. The kits were so unbalanced it wasnt even funny. Some were great, but many were just too broken. For my money, I would go with templates or wait for the inevitable bonus classes in the CKG or Crusader.

 

[Mythmere1]

I think you'll see at least some resistance to this idea as the folks who C&C is targeted at are primarily ones who were very unhappy with 2e.

I don't think that's really true. Remember, C&C is basically a new game that in my mind is what 3E might have been if the designers had used a different gaming philosophy.

Yes, the "base" of it is closer to 1E than to 2E - I think it skips a lot of the changes that 2E made, punching right through to the more streamlined and intuitive game mechanisms of 3E. And while its true that many C&C players begin playing because they're dissatisfied with one thing or another, it becomes clear during play that this is a parallel evolution of D&D, not a nostalgic throwback.

 

[TerraDave]

Oh well, it's just for the sake of discussion, as I don't intend to run anything Castle and Crusades. Anyway, I have the C&C boxed set (# 300 please!) and will someday buy the PHB as well.

So in reading various threads about C&C I do see people who complain that C&C classes cannot be customized, and that some people thus think of adding in 3e feats. Then, I do read how much it is easy to convert D&D 1e and 2e stuff to C&C. Well, among my fifty 1e and 2e rulebboks, I have a lot of "Complete Handbooks". I was wondering if using some kits (probably not all of them would fit) of AD&D 2e to customize C&C classes wouldn't be an interesting idea? At least instead of using feat, that would make for a more different C&C than one trying to catch up with D&D 3e.

Turanil I am suprised at how polite the responses to this have been--must be an EnWorld thing--and might even think you where looking for flames...

kits came to be hated by many (including myself in the end) back when all those brown books where surging out, and could be considered the ultimate example of what was wrong with 2nd edition. Its funny, the 30th year anniversary book has an essay on those handbooks, and the author, who was heavily involved in their creation, even admits that they where a failure and caused power creep aproaching power jump. (though in theory, yes I am sure you could do something like that with enough tweaking, in theory)

 

[gideon_thorne]

I dont think you will find that much resistance at all.

I think the kits would make a fine series of templates for new class variant designs.

As others have suggested, I'd approach the problem like constructing a new class, work out how the abilties plug into an xp table, consider which prime is appropriate for each class (fairly easily since kits are designed for specific classes) and then build the class from there.

 

[Turanil]

I do agree that most kits couldn't be used as they are. This is rather to be discussed with the DM on a case by case basis. Say a player wants to make a fighter different from that of another player. He takes one of his 2e Complete Handbooks and sees a kit that pleases him. Then he has to work it as to tweak the fighter class in a way that make sense and doesn't unbalance anything.

Anyway, my biggest complaint with Castles & Crusades, is not about a flaw this game could have, but the fact that the market is overflooded now, and whatever money I can have to buy books, I only have limited time to play. Since I have got enough (almost fifty) d20/DnD books of all sorts, and have 4 campaigns ready, I won't try another game that will make useless all these books. That is, I like to play long campaigns over one-shot adventures. So i will probably get this C&C PHB for the read, but it comes too late as far as I am concerned.