adamantine non-ferrous? [2003 thread]

[Voadam]

I would be willing to bet a pretty penny that had the scenarior been approached differently your DM would have ruled that adamantine is magnetic. Instinctively most people would rule that it is magnetic because, as has been said, adamantine is the partner to iron and mithril to silver. Because iron is metallic, so too is adamantine by association.

However, beceause you were trying to take away his 'super hammer' and one spell would negate his +13 damage, the dm figured a way to cancel your affect. A little chauncy, but understandable.

I'd rule that it is magnetic because it just makes sense to me. LIkewise, I'd rule that all metals are affected as per magnetic in D&D for simplicity.

How much would you like to bet

This was a quick dream sequence gladiator bout over e-mail so we could bring a longtime player who was new to 3.5 up to 3.5 combat speed by the book, I was fighting a fellow PC, not an NPC.

Both myself and the dwarf PC were surprised my magnetism did not work, his reaction "I know it will hurt me big time, but I think it should work. Look at Magneto and Wolverine."

Of course the DM is an engineer and we are not.

We went with it because we agree it is a DM world decision and so his call as it is not in the books anywhere.

 

[Voadam]

That's funny because I really don't equate iron and adamantine nor silver and mithril. Silver and mithril are both shiny and "metallic" colored, but then again so are a lot of metals. Adamantine is no more like iron than copper is, as far as I can tell (except maybe color... but they don't talk about color in the DMG). So... actually, I don't see that being my instinct at all. If someone said "is it magnetic" I would say "does it have iron in it?" And since I'm pretty sure it's intended to be its own element, not just some fancy alloy, then I'd say no.



Uh.... picking up gold and silver with a magnet makes sense to you? No no no. Ferrous materials makes sense to me.

But then again, I play with a bunch of engineers, and I think we'd all have an aneurysm if someone tried picking up gold with a magnet.

-The Souljourner

I now know your secret weakness! My use of the magnetism spell can cause damage to your whole party!

How about this one "I can fly with magnetism, just like Magneto, right? Its cause there is iron in blood that allows that to happen. while flying I pick his pocket from range for the gold pieces I know are in there."

I can picture the table full of engineers now, all of their heads exploded with scientific inaccuracies.

 

[Lamoni]

Uh.... picking up gold and silver with a magnet makes sense to you? No no no. Ferrous materials makes sense to me.

But then again, I play with a bunch of engineers, and I think we'd all have an aneurysm if someone tried picking up gold with a magnet.

I agree completely. Saying that magnetism affects all metals just doesn't make sense at all. Although if it did affect all metals, I would always carry a magnet around for getting treasure out of those acid pools (our DM likes to use that trick also).

Different metals have different affinities for magnatism. Iron is the strongest in this regard, followed by nickel.

Other metals can be made into magnets or controlled magnetically (well, anything can) but this takes an immense amount of energy.

Well, any metal can be used to make an electric magnet. You can make your own with an aluminum nail and wrap a wire around it. It doesn't take much energy to do that... only a small current.

The thing is, moving electrons create a magnetic field and a changing magnetic field causes electrons to move. Electrons can move very easily through almost any metal... in fact copper and gold are much better electrical conductors than iron. So, yes you can use magnetism to affect any metal you want. But, it requires changing magnetic fields... something that a magnet can't provide well, but AC current can. Anyway, that is the reason why magneto can move wolverine around wherever he wants. He can affect the magnetic fields to induce current through the adamantium which would become like a temporary magnet and then he could push or pull it with other magnetic fields. Of course the current wouldn't be able to travel far so he would constantly have to manipulate the fields so that he could move the current back and forth and also reverse the other fields so that they would move the metal object where he wanted. It would be impossible to do for anyone else but Magneto. And since most D&D campaigns don't include Magneto or his extraordinary power, you can just say that it can't be done.

 

[Lamoni]

How about this one "I can fly with magnetism, just like Magneto, right? Its cause there is iron in blood that allows that to happen. while flying I pick his pocket from range for the gold pieces I know are in there."

I am not that familiar with the comics, but if that is the reason they gave for why Magneto can fly, they are nuts. Sure, blood has iron in it, but if you applied a force to it sufficient to lift someone off the ground, it would instead just burst through the person. Sort of like in the movie X-2. On the other hand, he could just wear a metal suit and fly that way. In X-2 I didn't understand why he didn't just use the metal from his glasses. Of course maybe they were ceramic. Or maybe they were not iron and Magneto knew he couldn't use his powers to move it easy enough to shoot it like a weapon. Anyway, this is off topic. but it is fun to think of all the cool things you could do if you allowed magnetism to affect all metal the same as iron.

 

[Levinthauer]

Taking things too literally?

Wait a minute: it was a spell, right? A magic spell?
(Is it really necessary to argue physical laws when they don't apply?)

It could very well be that the spell itself does affect "metals" because of their inherent "metalness", just in the way that an alchemist could conceivably transmute lead to gold, but not wood to gold. Just another interesting property based on where the element is on the periodic table... So, while mundane magnetism works normally, the *spell* Magnetism does something similar but wildly more interesting. (Magic should be interesting.)

This is a failing the spell description, more than anything else. It should have set its paramaters more clearly in the description. What level is this spell?

In this particular case, the DM ruled in a very safe way... but also pretty much rules out any creative uses for the spell--on both sides of the DM screen--in the future. Sure, picking up gold with a magnet may be impossible, but causing an engineer an aneurism because you picked his pocket from a distance can be lots of fun.

On the flip side, if you set the precedent that all metals inherently have some potential magnetic property, then you're making some sweeping changes there, too. For example: ship's compasses would be useless. They're typically housed in brass--not steel--for that very reason. That would cause all navigators aneurisms.

 

[Lamoni]

Wait a minute: it was a spell, right? A magic spell?
(Is it really necessary to argue physical laws when they don't apply?)

It could very well be that the spell itself does affect "metals" because of their inherent "metalness", just in the way that an alchemist could conceivably transmute lead to gold, but not wood to gold. Just another interesting property based on where the element is on the periodic table... So, while mundane magnetism works normally, the *spell* Magnetism does something similar but wildly more interesting. (Magic should be interesting.)

Yes. It is magic. I wasn't trying to debate that it is impossible to attract all iron towards you without a real magnet and without it also pulling you. It magically creates a magnetic field that pulls things. Now, if the spell said that it attracted metals or something like that, you would have a point. The spell creates the magnetism. It doesn't say that it alters magnetism. In your campaign you could create a spell called attract metals, but that isn't how the magnetism spell would work IMO.

 

[AnthonyJ]

Hm.

First of all, Rust Monsters seem to just have super-metal-eating powers. Gold doesn't oxidize to any significant degree under any normal circumstances.

I'd call adamantine ferrous; just like mithril is true-silver, adamantine is true-steel. I make this decision because I feel it should be an 'ideal' form of a metal known to the ancients (the list is: Iron, Copper, Silver, Tin, Gold, Mercury, and Lead; Bismuth and Antimony were known but not as metals). Of those, the one specifically noted for hardness is iron.

Obviously, DnD cosmology is not medieval. It might be amusing to come up with 'True' analogs to the other materials, however. Some thoughts:

Iron->Adamantine
Copper->???
Silver->Mithril
Tin->???
Gold->Traditionally, gold would be the most pure of materials already. If there was a desire for a gold-like material, Orichalcum sounds good (though historically inaccurate). As its primary property is resistance to corruption, it would probably have effects on magic.
Mercury->again, generally considered an exotic material already. Not particularly useful for armor regardless.
Lead->Lead is noted for weight (even though gold is denser) and general dullness. An anti-magical material might be lead.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That's funny because I really don't equate iron and adamantine nor silver and mithril. Silver and mithril are both shiny and "metallic" colored, but then again so are a lot of metals. Adamantine is no more like iron than copper is, as far as I can tell (except maybe color... but they don't talk about color in the DMG). So... actually, I don't see that being my instinct at all. If someone said "is it magnetic" I would say "does it have iron in it?" And since I'm pretty sure it's intended to be its own element, not just some fancy alloy, then I'd say no.

IMNSHO, Adamantine is a convenient game mechanic catchall for any superior material -- whether it is a specific mineral ore or alloy or just an advanced refining or metalworking technique is beside the point.

The real world history has been preserved, in a manner or speaking, in our legends and myths. When sufficient skill with iron appeared, these "magical" weapons defeated opponents armed with bronze and copper. That ~3000-4000 year old memory of slaughtering and enslaving barbarous and peculiar cultures is the probable origin of using "cold iron" against "fey" and other magical creatures.

The joke is that Cold Iron and Adamantine is really speaking of the same thing. It is only the cleverness of the comic books in reinventing our own legends with a thin pseudoscientific veneer that would suggest otherwise.

For D&D purposes, it is (unfortunately) completely arbitrary whether Adamantine is ferrous. If it were up to me, I would say that Adamantine is a found gift from the Gods, i.e. iron meteorites.

 

[LGodamus]

The point is ...I doubt the spells says anything about ferrous...I cant guarantee...anyone got the exact text?.

 

[Ferret]

Since Adamantine is an entirely different metal - that is, not a compound but a pure element

Adamantite is the ore it's made from, but that doesn't mean they don't adds stuff in to help. Also the reason magnets work is that they move the electrons, if the electrons are anything like steel/iron ones it could work. I need some more help on why it's just the iron ones that are affected. Also It seems like magnets and rust in D&D effect all metals.