Adamantite Bypassing DR?

[hong]

I find it interesting that nobody has yet made a comment about the fact that DR is bypassed by enhancement bonus, and adamantine has an enhancement bonus, and instead they've decided to argue with irrelevant side points rather than actually disputing the blatantly obvious fact that adamantine bypasses DR because it gives an enhancement bonus, and DR is bypassed by an enhancement bonus.

Not quite. From the DMG, p.242: "Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural enhancement bonus to attack and damage".

Adamantine provides a _natural_ enhancement bonus. The controversy is about whether this constitutes a separate bonus category to "enhancement", or is simply a clarification on the origin of the bonus ("natural" as opposed to "magical").

I lean toward the former. If nothing else, it's always been traditional in D&D that creatures requiring "+X" weapons to hit require _magical_ weapons. Adamantine has never been able to let you get past this defense.

 

[FANGO]

If it's a separate bonus, it should stack with the regular enhancement bonus from magic (such as armor and natural armor). However, in this case, both because it doesn't stack and because of the description of the adamantine battleaxe in the special magic weapons section of the DMG, "natural" is pretty clearly just there to clarify that the enhancement bonus, while still an enhancement bonus, does not actually come from magic.

If you're going to argue that they are different bonuses (such as "natural armor" and "armor"), then they should stack...if you're going to argue that they're the same (i.e. that they don't stack), then they're the same and it bypasses DR.

 

[Xarlen]

If you're going to argue that they are different bonuses (such as "natural armor" and "armor"), then they should stack...if you're going to argue that they're the same (i.e. that they don't stack), then they're the same and it bypasses DR.

It's time to wake up an old point.

I once more reference Masterwork Weapons. Yep. The +1 comes from an unnamed bonus, *BUT* that bonus does not stack with magical weapons. Just like Adamantite. See? Different bonuses that Don't Stack with Magic. They have to do with the Quality of the weapon.

Let's call this masterwork +1 a 'Quality Bonus'. It does not stack with magic (Magic basicly overrides it). The *natural* enchantment bonus of Adamantite does not stack with magic. Hmm.

What happens when a Masterwork Weapon enters an antimagic field? Why, you get the +1 quality bonus. Since you need a masterwork weapon to make a magical item, when a Magical weapon enters an anti-field, I'm pretty sure it gets that +1 quality bonus. When Adamantite enters an anti-magic field, you get the bonus.

Simular, aren't they?

 

[hong]

If it's a separate bonus, it should stack with the regular enhancement bonus from magic (such as armor and natural armor). However, in this case, both because it doesn't stack and because of the description of the adamantine battleaxe in the special magic weapons section of the DMG, "natural" is pretty clearly just there to clarify that the enhancement bonus, while still an enhancement bonus, does not actually come from magic.

If you're going to argue that they are different bonuses (such as "natural armor" and "armor"), then they should stack...if you're going to argue that they're the same (i.e. that they don't stack), then they're the same and it bypasses DR.

The "separate bonuses stack, same bonuses don't stack" rule is broken often enough to make these arguments iffy. A masterwork weapon gives a +1 bonus to attacks, but doesn't stack with enhancement (or natural enhancement) bonuses. A shield's bonus to AC stacks with the armour bonus from worn armour, but not that from a mage armour spell, or bracers of armour. And so on.

The bonus from adamantine is explicitly stated not to stack with that from magic. Similarly, a shield provides an armour bonus to AC, but its bonus is explicitly stated to stack with the armour bonus from regular armour. The point is that the shield/armour situation is one where the default rules on stacking don't apply. Similarly, even if adamantine provided a different bonus type to magic, it's explicitly stated that the default stacking rules don't apply, so nothing's changed.

 

[FANGO]

And in any place that this happens, it is specifically stated whether it stacks or not, as you say. So here's where my point comes in: the bonuses from adamantine "do not stack with any other enhancement bonuses." Does this not mean that they are enhancement bonuses, too? If there are different classifications of enhancement bonuses, then if DR is only meant to be overcome by one of them, why does it not say that it only is overcome by "magical enhancement bonuses"? Because it's not. It's overcome by all enhancement bonuses, because all it says is that it's overcome by "enhancement bonuses." The type of enhancement bonus, or where it is derived from, does not matter...simply the fact that it is an enhancement bonus.

And Xarlen, do you honestly believe that the game designers made adamantine +1 weapons worth 10 times as much as masterwork weapons for a simple doubling of hp/hardness, and a +1 to damage? I think not.

And it's spelled "similar". I hate when people do that.

 

[Xarlen]

Well, *I* most certainly would if it ment less chance of someone sundering my magic weapon I spent all that gold on.

Besides, there's a big difference between a masterwork weapon and an adamantite one. You get a +2 adamantite weapon? Then you enchant it. First with a +1, then start stacking on the abilities, and you still have a +2 weapon (Although it's still a +1 in purposes of DR).

And, you want to argue about enchantment bonuses? Then why is it a +1 adamantite weapon can't be enchanted, since magic weapons need a +1 before you can put special abilities on them? A weapon needs an Enchantment bonus, but look, natural enchantment bonuses Don't Work.

 

[Bonedagger]

Re: el nope!

sorry, but SKR/Sage or some other person ruled other wise.

Adamantine is a natural enhancement and does not count v DR or enhancment ... it can never be dispelled though.

so even if a creature has a DR of 30/silver ... adamantine will not bypass it

*unless you house rule it*

for enhancement, an adamantine longsword (for example) still has to be given a +1 enhancement to be able to accpet other things (like flaming burst). If only +1 it will still have it's +2 (for 1d8+ on dmg), and will be able to bypass DR/+1 or less (since it has a normal +1 enhancement).

From what I know about "The Sages" rulings I have made up my mind that a reference to him is not a valid argument.

 

[laiyna]

Fango

I can only agre with Fango on this. The rules are clear about that.

Lai

 

[FANGO]

What's an enchantment bonus?

I, too, would pay extra for some more hardness...but not 3000 gold. Perhaps about 1000 gold would be enough to pay for that +1 damage and some extra hardness...and what do you know, it just so happens that adamantine weapons cost about 1000 gold more than equivalent magic weapons (well, equivalent in pluses, but not in flexibility).

And it is interesting that you bring up that point, about the getting magical special abilities when all you've got is an adamantine. According to the rules as written, it seems that this might be possible...however, it would be reasonable to think that they meant magical enhancement bonuses in that section, since that section does all deal with magical abilities. Personally, I've never been a fan of the "something must be +1" rule to begin with, but oh well.

And bonedagger is right about the sage responses...unless it's published, errataed, or FAQed, the sage has contradicted himself so often that he really isn't reliable enough to base a ruling off of (especially considering that you probably sent a weighted email to him to begin with ;-)).

 

[Xarlen]

And bonedagger is right about the sage responses...unless it's published, errataed, or FAQed, the sage has contradicted himself so often that he really isn't reliable enough to base a ruling off of (especially considering that you probably sent a weighted email to him to begin with ;-)). [/B]

I asked, and I quote: Does an adamantite shortsword bypass a vampire's 15/+1 DR?

Yes, so loaded with my opinon.