Adapting the Thomas Covenant setting

[The Shadow]

Inspired by the What Licensed RPG Do You Wish Existed But Doesn't? thread.

I think this setting has tons of potential, in multiple different eras, but adapting it could be a challenge.

One headache is that the actual abilities of Lords, Gravelingases, Hirebrands and so on are kind of murky.

To take the Lords as examples, sure, they can produce Lordsfire and erect Forbiddings; they can also protect to some extent from the magics of ur-viles and so on. But the other stuff they do seems really situational and ritualized. (For further fun, what Lords can accomplish depends quite on lot on the era - how many Wards of Kevin's Lore are available. During Kevin's era, or before the Sunbane, there's no telling.)

Gravelingases can repair pottery, predict the weather, and in extreme cases control it briefly. Probably they can do other things with stone, but who knows? We know even less about what Hirebrands can do. Then there's the Unfettered, who are just plain all over the place!

Finally, outside the Land you've got guys like Kasreyn who seem more like traditional wizards - though again, tending heavily toward rituals and enchanting.

What this is saying to me is that a magic system like that from any version of D&D is Right Out. Probably we want something more free-form and themed. But what? Fate could maybe work? Any other ideas?

 

[The Shadow]

Thinking about this some more, perhaps anyone with powers should base it off of a few (three?) keywords that describe what they're good at, and things are freeformed a bit off of that.

Lords would be something like, Defense, Ritual, and Lordsfire. "Ritual" means you describe what you want, the GM tells you what it's going to take to pull it off. Screwing up a ritual can be very bad for one's health!

Gravelingas would maybe be Stone, Weather, and... Healing?

Hirebrands maybe Wood, Movement, and... something that would cover the Test of Truth.

Unfettered can pick three within reason, but in exchange they have to take a major drawback of some kind. Like the one who could only do empathic healing, ouch! (More like sympathetic healing, really - she had to injure herself.)

Kasreyn had Ritual, Enchant Items, and maybe Mind. Like the Unfettered, he had a drawback - each of his works needs to have a major flaw. (Though honestly, the flaw in the Sandgorgon's Doom worked to his benefit in some ways.)

Perhaps if you're willing to have less than three keywords, you get a bonus? So maybe Gravelingases and Hirebrands don't need three. Their arts seem less dangerous than the others too.

 

[ilgatto]

While I wouldn't have a clue as to what game or rules system you could use, I do know that Lewis Pulsipher once attempted to make AD&D versions of some Chronicles monsters in White Dwarf #16 back in 1979. Maybe that article can help you (further) on your way?

 

[Aldarc]

Monte Cook’s Diamond Throne setting was inspired (in-part) by The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There is also White Dwarf #21, which had class conversions for AD&D (including the Bloodguard).

I think what makes the Land so appealing is that it has so many ideas crammed into it- and that's just the First Chronicles! Between the idea of Lore, and the variations of Wood and Stone, not to mention the magics of the ur-viles and hinted-to history of the demondim as well as the Forrestals, there's just a lot to use.

Once the world is broadened in the Second Chronicles ...

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

One thing that strikes me about the magic of The Land is that it is physically draining to use. So it would likely cost Stamina/Constitution. Which would in turn have specific recovery mechanisms, such as eating aliantha berries and drinking diamondraught.

 

[Umbran]

What this is saying to me is that a magic system like that from any version of D&D is Right Out. Probably we want something more free-form and themed. But what? Fate could maybe work? Any other ideas?

My first thought would be Cortex Prime - you might want to look at Tales of Xadia as a model, as it is also addressing making a game around a work of fiction that doesn't have a large, clearly delineated list of magical effects to pick and choose from. Tales of Xadia operates under the idea that the character will have some small number of specific effects they use a lot, and they'll have that effect as an Asset, so it'll generally work better, but they can also produce other effects in their bailiwick, just less well.

My second thought would be Fate. Someone has "Gravelingas" in their High Concept aspect, and they can do anything we expect gravelingas can do.

 

[The Shadow]

My first thought would be Cortex Prime - you might want to look at Tales of Xadia as a model, as it is also addressing making a game around a work of fiction that doesn't have a large, clearly delineated list of magical effects to pick and choose from. Tales of Xadia operates under the idea that the character will have some small number of specific effects they use a lot, and they'll have that effect as an Asset, so it'll generally work better, but they can also produce other effects in their bailiwick, just less well.

My second thought would be Fate. Someone has "Gravelingas" in their High Concept aspect, and they can do anything we expect gravelingas can do.

Interesting, I really know nothing about Cortex, but I'll take a look.

Fate is my go-to for just about anything these days! But just an aspect feels a bit weak, at any rate for Lords and guys on that scale. I'd probably require a stunt for Ritual stuff, at minimum.

The Atomic Robo system based on Fate seems like it could be reskinned pretty easily for this. Between mega-stunts for magic and the invention rules for rituals, it seems like it could work.

 

[Umbran]

Interesting, I really know nothing about Cortex, but I'll take a look.

Fate is my go-to for just about anything these days! But just an asset feels a bit weak, at any rate for Lords and guys on that scale. I'd probably require a stunt for Ritual stuff, at minimum.

Tales of Xadia Assets are not really like Fate Asset/Aspects.
In ToX, creating a magical effect calls for building a dice pool - in general, that pool has at least 3 dice. For any magic it will be at least four, possibly more. The Asset would give you one die in that pool.

The Atomic Robo system based on Fate seems like it could be reskinned pretty easily for this. Between mega-stunts for magic and the invention rules for rituals, it seems like it could work.

The invention rules for rituals works fine. Mind you the "Pay for it" step will need some work in context, or you're handing the players a lot of power.

I don't know about Mega-stunts for general magic, though. Stunts and Mega stunts give you one, or a couple, of effects, and they are pretty specific. If you have only a couple of magical effects you can do, that's okay.

But if you have an unspecified large number of effects you can do, stunts are too specific. A general Aspect (like "Lord of the Council") would imply the character can do everything you expect a Lord of the Council to be able to do.

If you want to see a Fate game that has magic effects you might use as a model, there's Spirit of the Century, and The Dresden Files, which build out systems to handle such effects.

 

[The Shadow]

If you want to see a Fate game that has magic effects you might use as a model, there's Spirit of the Century, and The Dresden Files, which build out systems to handle such effects.

On the whole, I'm not very satisfied with Dresden Files magic. Though Evocation might be an OK model to start from.

 

[Umbran]

On the whole, I'm not very satisfied with Dresden Files magic. Though Evocation might be an OK model to start from.

Well, it models magic specifically from those books. It was more an example of how one might approach the matter.

 

[Aldarc]

On the whole, I'm not very satisfied with Dresden Files magic. Though Evocation might be an OK model to start from.

Are you talking about magic in the Dresden Files RPG (2010) or the later Dresden Files Accelerated (2017) book?

I would also check The Secrets of Cats, as it has a magic skill system with powers of Warding, Seeking, Naming, and Shaping. That may be a good start.

 

[The Shadow]

Are you talking about magic in the Dresden Files RPG (2010) or the later Dresden Files Accelerated (2017) book?

The former, I haven't really looked at the latter. Accelerated isn't really my thing.

I would also check The Secrets of Cats, as it has a magic skill system with powers of Warding, Seeking, Naming, and Shaping. That may be a good start.

Huh, that particular angle hadn't even occurred to me, good suggestion!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If there’s no extant RPG for a given setting already, my default system for modeling a setting’s complex and sometimes vaguely defined magic system would be to use HERO. Barring that (for whatever reasons), I’d use a “toolbox” RPG that I’m comfortable with.

Because IME, a lot of systems can handle 90% of the stuff needed to run a campaign, almost regardless of the actual setting. But if you can’t get the stuff that DEFINES the setting right, be it magic, technology or something else, it won feel right in play. And a toolbox RPG typically gives you the ability to customize the campaig-specific mechanics gou need with a minimum of difficult shoehorning.

 

[Autumnal]

For me, there are two crucial features of the Land:

First, it’s a deeply magical place. It’s not fundamentally naturalistic except where magic is bolted on, and it doesn’t have Gygaxian naturalism. Magic is essential, from the foundations of the world on up, and a bunch of things people do are part of that.

Second, it’s an intensely moral place. Many fantasy stories let protagonists get away with a lot of bad behavior because they’re the designated heroes. The Land doesn’t. And it doesn’t matter to the world whether victims or bystanders forgive the perpetrators of immoral acts: moral consequences are as real as any other consequences. Bad causes lead to bad effects until and unless the damage done can be repaired, and sometimes it can’t be. In the first series, Thomas is quite right to still regard himself as guilty despite others rushing to forgive him. He plays a necessary part in saving the Land despite his guilt, and that’s a rare balance to strike.

It occurs to me that something like Pendragon’s personality traits and passions would go well alongside whatever mechanics there might be.

 

[The Shadow]

For me, there are two crucial features of the Land:

First, it’s a deeply magical place. It’s not fundamentally naturalistic except where magic is bolted on, and it doesn’t have Gygaxian naturalism. Magic is essential, from the foundations of the world on up, and a bunch of things people do are part of that.

Agreed!

Second, it’s an intensely moral place. Many fantasy stories let protagonists get away with a lot of bad behavior because they’re the designated heroes. The Land doesn’t. And it doesn’t matter to the world whether victims or bystanders forgive the perpetrators of immoral acts: moral consequences are as real as any other consequences. Bad causes lead to bad effects until and unless the damage done can be repaired, and sometimes it can’t be. In the first series, Thomas is quite right to still regard himself as guilty despite others rushing to forgive him. He plays a necessary part in saving the Land despite his guilt, and that’s a rare balance to strike.

It occurs to me that something like Pendragon’s personality traits and passions would go well alongside whatever mechanics there might be.

This is a really good point! Actions have major consequences in the Land. In The Wounded Land, it's hard to tell if the damage to Joan has damaged the Land or vice versa!

 

[The Shadow]

My first thought would be Cortex Prime - you might want to look at Tales of Xadia as a model, as it is also addressing making a game around a work of fiction that doesn't have a large, clearly delineated list of magical effects to pick and choose from. Tales of Xadia operates under the idea that the character will have some small number of specific effects they use a lot, and they'll have that effect as an Asset, so it'll generally work better, but they can also produce other effects in their bailiwick, just less well.

I took a look at Tales of Xadia, and Cortex Prime more generally. (They had not been on my radar before this.) Interesting stuff, the system basically strikes me as "crunchier Fate", a niche that I'm glad to see people staking out.

The rules of ToX seem to assume that you can produce only the most minor of effects without an actual spell, but I can see how to go about what you're suggesting - just apply only the Magic asset itself without a spell. The only trouble is, it's easier to extrapolate what "Fire" magic can do in general than "Lords' Lore".

One thing I really take away from ToX is that Values are a neat way to enforce the morality of the setting!

Values for the Land might be... Hmm. Loyalty, Peace, Courage, Hope, and Love. There's probably also a Despite value, but using it has nasty consequences long term.

My second thought would be Fate. Someone has "Gravelingas" in their High Concept aspect, and they can do anything we expect gravelingas can do.

The problem is that we aren't entirely sure what to expect, except it probably involves stone. Left to myself, I certainly wouldn't guess they could control the weather!

I'd have no problem with a Gravelingas repairing a pot, for certain. Likewise if they've got orcrest, I'd let them roll Will (against a pretty hefty difficulty) to control the weather. For anything else, I guess the table either wings it or one has to think up other things Gravelingases can do ahead of time.

Expending one's health or life to power a magical effect is kind of a Thing in the Land, so I'd probably add a rule that you can take consequences to get bonuses to a magical roll.

 

[Umbran]

The rules of ToX seem to assume that you can produce only the most minor of effects without an actual spell, but I can see how to go about what you're suggesting - just apply only the Magic asset itself without a spell.

In the setting one can have other Assets that can impact the result - like a magic staff as a focus, or an item charged with magical energy... or a white gold ring, etc...

Values for the Land might be... Hmm. Loyalty, Peace, Courage, Hope, and Love. There's probably also a Despite value, but using it has nasty consequences long term.

Yeah. Rather like dark magic in Xadia.

 

[Thourne]

In the setting one can have other Assets that can impact the result - like a magic staff as a focus, or an item charged with magical energy... or a white gold ring, etc...



Yeah. Rather like black magic in Xadia.

I hate to be that guy but Dark Magic, not black magic.
Sorry

 

[Umbran]

I hate to be that guy but Dark Magic, not black magic.
Sorry

Fair enough.