Adding a werewolf template to an existing character, help please!

Wonka

First Post
Except that you level up immediately and not over a year. Time is relatively unimportant in this regard.

That is as soon as you gained your racial hit dice - you had "leveled" up.

The only way (per the RAW) to avoid this is to use the optional traiing rules in the DMG (but that has a whole different set of issues involved with that).


Well agree to disagree then. My DM is fine with it, and in the end, thats all that matters. But then again, our group is generally more flexible with the rules. Thats the beauty of this game isnt it? Its easily adaptable to suit any given groups needs. Ok so I guess "easy" is a relative term ;) I also thought that you didnt have to spend your skill points immediately? You got the skill points, but could spend them whenever, it just usually makes more sense to spend them all at once. Anyways, no biggie. Just rambling at this point. I wasnt trying to start any sort of debate, just pointing out how we went about rationalizing things.
 
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irdeggman

First Post
Well agree to disagree then. My DM is fine with it, and in the end, thats all that matters. But then again, our group is generally more flexible with the rules. Thats the beauty of this game isnt it? Its easily adaptable to suit any given groups needs. Ok so I guess "easy" is a relative term ;) I also thought that you didnt have to spend your skill points immediately? You got the skill points, but could spend them whenever, it just usually makes more sense to spend them all at once. Anyways, no biggie. Just rambling at this point. I wasnt trying to start any sort of debate, just pointing out how we went about rationalizing things.

Yup - in your game you can do whatever you all agree is best.

Per RAW - you can't carry anything over.

PHB pg 58

"Going up a level provides the character with several immediate benefits." {then the list of what happens - 1st thing is choose a class, then so on. . .}

DMG pg 197

"According to the rules in the PHB, characters pick up new skills and feats as they go up in levles." {It then gives the "optional training rules.}


{edit}

I stazrted thinking on this one again and still keep coming up with the same conclusion - it is flat out wrong.

Essentially what happened was (by reading the OPs posts):

level 12 swordsage (who has been holding on to his skill points since leveling up) - gets "inflicted".

Gains 2 HD (and +2 LA) - then spends (after year of game time {not real time}) his level 12 swordsage skill points (and probably his 2 monster HD level's worth too).

So essentially the rules have been violated since the character gained 2 levels at once. The level 12 swordsage and the monster level (which in this case is a sudden 2 HD gain).

The rules say this can't happen.

If you spent your swordsage skill points on control shape skill. It is not a class skill until after you gain the template (i.e., have advanced 2 HD of levels as a monster). Since skill points are always spent at the rate of the class that earned them - in this case it would at a minimum cost you 2 sp per rank since it cannot be a class skill yet.
 
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akbearfoot

First Post
I would be extremely offended as any other member of this particular adventure group...I'd be asking the DM 'Where are my free 2 levels worth of power with no disadvantage'. Because that is essentially what you were given.

Or I guess since there is absolutely no drawback, the next time everyone is about to go up a level they can just ask you to bite them and they can voluntarily fail their saves.


Your DM let you just 'spend' a year and didn't bother with the whole part where you go berserk on your first full moon and kill several innocent victims. Sounds anti-climactic after a neat sounding story arc where you got to save the day after wolfing out.


Werewolves are not chaotic evil because humans think they are evil...They are chaotic evil because they are sentient intelligent creatures that slaughter other creatures without cause or remorse. The various were-creatures have different alignments because they have different temperments and inclinations. This sort of argument works pretty well though in an setting like ebberon, where alignment variations are part of the basic flavor of the world.

Basically this question should have gone in House rules, because nothing about how your situation seems to have been handled has bearing on the normal rules....except where advantageous.
 

Runestar

First Post
Werewolves are not chaotic evil because humans think they are evil...They are chaotic evil because they are sentient intelligent creatures that slaughter other creatures without cause or remorse.

Interestingly enough, races of faerun says the exact opposite thing - that their alignment is based on people's perception of them, rather than their innate personalities.:p
 


irdeggman

First Post
Interestingly enough, races of faerun says the exact opposite thing - that their alignment is based on people's perception of them, rather than their innate personalities.:p

And so does the SRD/MM - but it also has other things that appear contrary too.

From the SRD
Alignment
This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to the species as a whole.


{Alignment werewolf – Always Chaotic Evil}

Alignment: Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.
{The subsequent table lists preferred alignment for werewolf as chaotic evil}

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.


LYCANTHROPES AS CHARACTERS
Becoming a lycanthrope does not change a character’s favored class but usually changes alignment (see above). This alignment change may cause characters of certain classes to lose some of their class features.
Lycanthrope characters possess the following racial traits.

There is a lot of confusion inherent in this collection of text. I have not found any errata or additional explanation of what the animal form's alignment would be to use as a guide here.

IMO - I would have the natural werewolf be chaotic evil (must be the source of the curse).

I would then have the PC have a pull towards this alignment (role-playing opportunity) and then handle it accordingly. But without a doubt IMO the first (uncontrolled) changes should absoutely reflect a chaotic evil alignment. Only when the changes are under control should the PC have his "normal" alignment when in animal form Basically I see there being 2 different alignments in place - one in animal form and the other in human form. But since the rules are not very clear (and there is no FAQ help on this one) it is up to those involved (DM and player).


Other useful resource information for the OP

From the FAQ

How should a character afflicted with a template (such as a PC who becomes a werewolf) deal with his newly acquired level adjustment? What if he later gets rid of the lycanthropy?


The simplest method to adjudicate this is to use the character’s new ECL to determine the point at which he gains his next level. A 4th-level barbarian who contracts lycanthropy from a werewolf (and thus gains 2 Hit Dice and a +2 level adjustment) becomes an ECL 8 character, and thus wouldn’t gain another class level until his XP total would advance him to 9th level. In the short term, this means the character has an advantage over his comrades (since he hasn’t yet “paid” for his level adjustment), but this is a self-correcting problem.


If the curse of lycanthropy is later lifted, the character loses the level adjustment. Technically speaking, he should then gain any class levels “due” to him according to his XP total. At the DM’s option, these levels could be applied gradually rather than all at once. One option might be to give the character one level immediately and then two class levels every time he would gain a single level until his character level is appropriate for his XP total. This makes the change less abrupt, but also represents a significant penalty to the character, so this option should be used only if everyone is comfortable with it.
 
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Wonka

First Post
akbearfoot said:
Basically this question should have gone in House rules, because nothing about how your situation seems to have been handled has bearing on the normal rules....except where advantageous.

Corsair said:
If you come to the rules forum, you'll get rules based answers. If you want house rules, you should say that in your OP.

Yeesh! A lot of people in arms here. I intended to find out how the rules worked. I found out, and my DM and I decided to go another route. All I wanted to know was how - per RAW - to apply a werewolf template. How does that make this question in the wrong forum? How I ultimatly ended up handling the situation has no bearing on the intent of my original question. As far as I can tell, the ONLY place where I went outside of Raw is where I applied all my skill points to Control Shape. Im not even sure I went against RAW by spending ALL my skill points in a CLASS skill, irdeggman just said as DM, he wouldnt allow it. I offered a roleplaying justification for my application of my skill points.

And I should clarify on this. I didnt spend my swordsage skill points on Control Shape, those were all spent normally. I spent my 2HD worth of wolf skill points on control shape. I hardly have complete mastery of my changing. I was merely trying to clarify my (obvious) confusion on when you spend skill points. I mistakenly thought you didnt have to spend them immediately upon leveling up. At no point did I ever say thats what I did. Also, I was not allowed to apply my werewolf template when I was bit, as I had no idea I had been affected. It wasnt until I transformed and ran amok that first time that I knew, and that just happened to end the arc we were on. At that point I was allowed to apply my template.

akbearfoot said:
I would be extremely offended as any other member of this particular adventure group...I'd be asking the DM 'Where are my free 2 levels worth of power with no disadvantage'. Because that is essentially what you were given.

Or I guess since there is absolutely no drawback, the next time everyone is about to go up a level they can just ask you to bite them and they can voluntarily fail their saves.

Your DM let you just 'spend' a year and didn't bother with the whole part where you go berserk on your first full moon and kill several innocent victims. Sounds anti-climactic after a neat sounding story arc where you got to save the day after wolfing out.

No drawback? I wont level again anytime soon. Meanwhile my other party members ( a druid, mage, and cleric) will all catch up pretty quickly with me as they will get 4 levels before I level again. Im hardly an optimized swordmage too, I went for cool stuff and thematic moves. So I get a a bunch of levels real quick, then nothing for a long, long time.

As far as my first transformation, I heard all about it. I killed quite a few people, and my party mates had to chase me down and control me after finding out about this. I definatly had to sit that one out too. The year we fast forwarded was after I was contained and discovered my condition, upon which my character decided to keep it, as it fit in well with his persona, but not before breakin free from his contraints and running off secret places to come to terms with his condition, away from society.

akbearfoot said:
Werewolves are not chaotic evil because humans think they are evil...They are chaotic evil because they are sentient intelligent creatures that slaughter other creatures without cause or remorse. The various were-creatures have different alignments because they have different temperments and inclinations. This sort of argument works pretty well though in an setting like ebberon, where alignment variations are part of the basic flavor of the world.

I suppose, but this all is again, based on people's PERCEPTIONS. Lets step out of D&D for a moment. In the real world, wolves have historically been percieved as evil and sinister. Werewovles are not real creatures. So when these stories of humans turning into wolves came about however long ago, they were obviously evil things. If historically wolves were seen as nice, gentle creatures, maybe the werewolf monster isnt a mean one, maybe its a nice, helpful protector of things. But thats not how it went down, and we have the evil werewolf of legend. This archetypal werewolf is the basis for the D&D werewolf. Hence, all based on the perception of others. Thats all Im arguing. I tend to agree with irdeggman on his thoughts, that NATURAL lycanthropes should follow the prefered alignment, but afflicted ones, should they be able to control themselves, fall in line with their natural alignment, with maybe a minor shift. For me, I was chaotic good.
 
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Shin Okada

Explorer
I suppose, but this all is again, based on people's PERCEPTIONS. Lets step out of D&D for a moment. In the real world, wolves have historically been percieved as evil and sinister. Werewovles are not real creatures. So when these stories of humans turning into wolves came about however long ago, they were obviously evil things. If historically wolves were seen as nice, gentle creatures, maybe the werewolf monster isnt a mean one, maybe its a nice, helpful protector of things. But thats not how it went down, and we have the evil werewolf of legend. This archetypal werewolf is the basis for the D&D werewolf. Hence, all based on the perception of others. Thats all Im arguing. I tend to agree with irdeggman on his thoughts, that NATURAL lycanthropes should follow the prefered alignment, but afflicted ones, should they be able to control themselves, fall in line with their natural alignment, with maybe a minor shift. For me, I was chaotic good.

Well, in this case "people" means real westerners, not people in DnD. Real westerners thought wolves to be their enemies. So in the legends werewolves were evil. Then DnD designers decided to make DnD werewolves (chaotic) evil. Same can be said for fiends being evil.

So, if your play group is making afflicted werewolves non-evil, that is like making fiends non-evil creatures. Natural or not, that is irrelevant.

By the way, in Japanese legends, wolves are often not evil nor human's enemies. Thus, when adapting werewolf in Japanese fictions and games, authors tend to make them noble people instead. Also, the word "wolf (or Ohkami in Japanese" is often used in good intend. There were a Yokozuna (grand champion) Sumo wrestler nicknamed as "Wolf". He was known to be strong but sincere person.
 


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