Adding HD

[frankthedm]

Shes got a level draining kiss (DC21) and a lot of SLAs. I've just been checking her out.

I bet !

 

[allenw]

HD means total HD for Su abilities, unless you're told otherwise somewhere.

I tend to assume otherwise. The MM/SRD tend to treat adding levels and adding HD as completely separate for most purposes.
Compare the Hound Archon to the Hound Archon Hero, and the Aboleth to the Aboleth Mage. Their (Su) and (Ex) ability DCs are adjusted for their changed stats, but not for their character-level Hit Dice.
On the other hand, the Sample Vampire and Sample Elite Vampire *do* use their character levels in calculating their (Su) ability DCs, possibly because they don't have any non-character-level Hit Dice.

 

[freyar]

I tend to assume otherwise. The MM/SRD tend to treat adding levels and adding HD as completely separate for most purposes.
Compare the Hound Archon to the Hound Archon Hero, and the Aboleth to the Aboleth Mage. Their (Su) and (Ex) ability DCs are adjusted for their changed stats, but not for their character-level Hit Dice.
On the other hand, the Sample Vampire and Sample Elite Vampire *do* use their character levels in calculating their (Su) ability DCs, possibly because they don't have any non-character-level Hit Dice.

It's possible that the archon and aboleth are mistakes; WotC made some even in the MM. Anyone have John Cooper's book of corrected critters handy?

 

[frankthedm]

It's possible that the archon and aboleth are mistakes;

that would also require the following to be mistakes.

Unicorn Celestial Charger, neutralize poison ability (DC 20) is only adjusted for monster HD and higher charisma.
Mummy Lord's Despair and Mummy rot are only adjusted for the higher charisma, not the 10 cleric HD.

Sure looks Monster HD are what affects DC for monsters that then have character classes added on. If the monster becomes a stronger monster [monster HD], the monstrous abilities become stronger.

Also there is the faq entry if the anecdotal evidence is not sufficient.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
Do creatures with special attacks increase the DC for
those attacks when they gain class levels? Are they
calculated based on the creature’s new ECL or its new CR?

Unless specifically noted in a monster description, the DC
of a creature’s innate special attacks depends only on its racial
HD, and not from HD gained from class levels. A horned devil
who gained levels of fighter, for instance, would not use its
fighter HD to calculate the DC of its fear aura or stun
supernatural special attacks. A creature’s ECL or CR has no
effect whatsoever on the save DCs for its special attacks or any
other ability.

However, if the creature’s ability scores change—such as
from the increase at every 4-HD interval—that might well
affect the DCs of its special attacks. If that horned devil, for
instance, improved its Strength from 31 to 32 when it gained its
first class level (giving it 16 HD total), its stun save DC would
improve by 1. Each special attack lists the ability score upon
which it is based (such as Strength for the horned devil’s stun).

 

[dingle]

I tend to assume otherwise. The MM/SRD tend to treat adding levels and adding HD as completely separate for most purposes.
Compare the Hound Archon to the Hound Archon Hero, and the Aboleth to the Aboleth Mage. Their (Su) and (Ex) ability DCs are adjusted for their changed stats, but not for their character-level Hit Dice.
On the other hand, the Sample Vampire and Sample Elite Vampire *do* use their character levels in calculating their (Su) ability DCs, possibly because they don't have any non-character-level Hit Dice.

I think the difference is that vampires are templates as are liches and were creatures, so their abilities would go up with their levels. The Hound Archon and Aboleth are not, so any addition of character levels do not effect there Su and Ex abilities.

 

[freyar]

faq stuff

Interesting. Thanks, Frank!