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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 6330847" data-attributes="member: 18">The problem here is that the fan base did not "largely" reject 4E, to judge from sales, the continuing popularity of the DDI, and so on.Rather 4E and PF together (for PF is not some innocent beneficiary here - it was a very calculated business), as well as the OSR stuff which had been emerging WELL before 4E was even envisioned, managed to split market to such a degree that 5E pretty much had to try something different to 4E. It was, I think, a much safer bet that plenty of 4E DMs/players would be okay with "old-fashioned" spells, than that OSR and/or PF DMs/players would be.*I think you overstate how "vanilla and identical" 4E's magic actually was, though - especially if you look beyond PHB1. Of course this is 4E's biggest problem - it started out vastly less impressive than it became. If all of 4E had been PHB1/MM1-levels of "MEH", I suspect we'd have given up on it years ago. So it's hard to blame people for thinking the way you are here. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />* = It's definitely not a completely safe bet, though - both the "new to RPGs" players in my 4E group loooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaathe the 5E style of spellcasting. They really bloody hate it. They have not been encouraged to think that way, either - I always put a positive spin on whatever I am running, and found myself arguing for the benefits for 5E's system during the playtests I did! But gosh, those two, who are not 4E fanatics (happy to play other RPGs), they just do not like spell memorization/preparation, lots of spell slots, nor spells with mechanics such that you need to read the entire spell in detail to understand how they work.Obviously, they can "just not play casters", but when one of them is the only player I've ever met who enjoys playing Clerics and healers generally, and the other pretty much always wants to be a robed finger-wiggler, conceptually, it's kind of an issue... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm not saying "5E NEEDS TO CHANGE MAAAAN!", just that, the spell system they've gone with - wow some people REALLY hate that (I don't, to me it just looks like a much better version of 1/2/3E's system, which I survived!).I dunno what I'll do with them in practice if I run 5E. Mostly hoping I end up playing rather than running and don't have to deal with the issue! Maybe the alternate spell-point system will somehow fix things (both of them have played plenty of spell-point-based CRPGs happily enough).</blockquote>

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