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<blockquote data-quote="N8Ball" data-source="post: 4907377" data-attributes="member: 63757">It is only that simple if I make the same assumptions that you do about the definition of &quot;critical hit&quot;, but I'm not, so it isn't.More importantly, you've mixed arguments between your logical equasions and what you wrote below them.The logical equasion wasn't finished because it didn't have a &quot;then&quot; statement, but I'm going to go out on a limb as hope that you meant &quot;then X&quot; to be after the equasion.&nbsp; If that's the case then when &quot;(A or B) and C&quot; isn't true, you never arrive at X.&nbsp; That is functionally different than saying that &quot;a critical hit can be a miss&quot;.&nbsp; The first requires you to have a hitting roll before you declare a crit, the other declares the crit and then checks to see if you hit.For the sake of clarity I will place the opposing argument (crit != hit) in logical form and we'll see how it jives with the rulebooks.&nbsp; (Please remember I'm trying to argue your position here, so please correct me if I put forth a paradigm that you don't agree with.)A = roll a 20B = an attack score high enough to hit the defenseC = roll a 19D = roll doublesE = Double onesH = you hitM = Max damage hit, plus extra damageX = &quot;Critical Hit&quot; which includes the following:&nbsp; (If B, then M)Z = missSO, the standard rules give us this form: IF B then HIF A then X and HIF not H then ZThe logic returns H or Z and possibly M in either case.This allows the game to score a hit that is not a crit but not (yet) a crit that is not a hit.&nbsp; (Prior to mastery feats there were not &quot;crittable&quot; numbers that were not also hits.)Mastery feats included the line (anywhere before the last line)IF C then XThis allows for an attack roll to be a 19, engage the X function and still miss, creating a max damage miss or in other words, a crit that misses.Holy Ardor also adds a line to the list in the form of:IF D and not E then XThis preserves your interpretation of the precision rule because it's built into X.&nbsp; This allowing you to roll double 2s and miss because B wasn't satisfied in the X function.For my worthy opponenets in this debate, please look this over carefully.&nbsp; It took me a while to get this right, but I think it describes your position relatively well.You're quite welcome, I definitely appreciate the same from everyone.&nbsp; There's no way we could make any progress otherwise.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="N8Ball, post: 4907377, member: 63757"] It is only that simple if I make the same assumptions that you do about the definition of "critical hit", but I'm not, so it isn't. More importantly, you've mixed arguments between your logical equasions and what you wrote below them. The logical equasion wasn't finished because it didn't have a "then" statement, but I'm going to go out on a limb as hope that you meant "then X" to be after the equasion. If that's the case then [B]when[/B] "(A or B) and C" isn't true, you never arrive at X. That is functionally different than saying that "a critical hit can be a miss". The first requires you to have a hitting roll before you declare a crit, the other declares the crit and then checks to see if you hit. For the sake of clarity I will place the opposing argument (crit != hit) in logical form and we'll see how it jives with the rulebooks. (Please remember I'm trying to argue your position here, so please correct me if I put forth a paradigm that you don't agree with.) A = roll a 20 B = an attack score high enough to hit the defense C = roll a 19 D = roll doubles E = Double ones H = you hit M = Max damage hit, plus extra damage X = "Critical Hit" which includes the following: (If B, then M) Z = miss SO, the standard rules give us this form: IF B then H IF A then X and H IF not H then Z The logic returns H or Z and possibly M in either case. This allows the game to score a hit that is not a crit but not (yet) a crit that is not a hit. (Prior to mastery feats there were not "crittable" numbers that were not also hits.) Mastery feats included the line (anywhere before the last line) IF C then X This allows for an attack roll to be a 19, engage the X function and still miss, creating a max damage miss or in other words, a crit that misses. Holy Ardor also adds a line to the list in the form of: IF D and not E then X This preserves your interpretation of the precision rule because it's built into X. This allowing you to roll double 2s and miss because B wasn't satisfied in the X function. For my worthy opponenets in this debate, please look this over carefully. It took me a while to get this right, but I think it describes your position relatively well. You're quite welcome, I definitely appreciate the same from everyone. There's no way we could make any progress otherwise. [/QUOTE]

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