Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[BobTheNob]

From Divine Power, the Ardent Champion has the following level 11 paragon ability

Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

Now, my question is, does that mean you still critically hit if the numbers are the same but the roll wasnt enough to hit? For instance, avenger needs an 11 to hit, and rolls 8 twice. Does this turn the miss into a critical hit?

There are examples of other powers that are keyed against both rolls needing to hit (the stance from the Serence initiate for instance) which suggests that the need to hit in the first place is otherwise explicately stated, yet here it isnt?

 

[DracoSuave]

-Very- good question.

Fortunately, there is a surprisingly straight forward answer.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

This path feature isn't hitting a 20, therefore, is not an automatic hit. Some might try to say otherwise, but Precision exists -exactly- for features such as this one.

Hope this helps!

 

[abyssaldeath]

This is under debate over at Gleemax. I happen to agree with DracoSuave, but to allow the feature to provide an automatic hit would probably not be over powered.

 

[DracoSuave]

Awesome.

Book says you don't in the rules for critical hits. (General.)

There is no specific rule to counter-act this. (Specific.)

Therefore apply the general rule.

This isn't really hard.

The reason the PP has the 'unless they are both 1s' feature is so that you know how to adjudicate what is an automatic miss.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is under debate over at Gleemax. I happen to agree with DracoSuave, but to allow the feature to provide an automatic hit would probably not be over powered.

Okay, let's say you need to roll an 11 or better to hit.

Without this, the Avenger has a 39/400 chance of rolling a critical, and a 261/400 chance of rolling a hit.

With the ability to crit (or even auto hit) with this, this changes the math (GAH)

Dear gawd.

Seriously.

I just woke up.

Look, it gives Avengers who have a retarded amount of accuracy as it is even more accuracy and makes their critical hit ability as good as the daggermaster's.

Except, of course, the daggermaster misses if he can't hit with his crit. (This isn't really a good argument tho, as if you can't roll 18 naturally and hit something your DM is a dick or you got debuffed to hell. Or you need to run away. RUN AWAY DAGGERMASTER RUN THIS IS NOT YOUR FIGHT OH NOES THE PALADIN GOT EATED BY VECNA NOOOOOOooooOOOooo!)

But seriously. The Avenger doesn't need more autohit. I dunno if it's broken, but damn if it isn't completely off the hook.

But regardless, if you give this the autohit ability, you're staring down a daggermaster with an execution axe. Those crits ain't with a 1d4 weapon. High Crit comes into play here. Massive damage.

It won't be pretty.

 

[Nifft]

Unfortunately, I don't think it's quite clear either way.

The language in the PHB for the Epic feats which give you 19-20 crits looks like this:

When you make a melee weapon attack with an axe, you can score a critical hit on a natural roll of 19 or 20.

(emphasis mine)

The difference between "you can score a critical hit" and "you score a critical hit" should be obvious: the former provides an opportunity, the latter could be read to confer a result.

IMHO the more balanced interpretation is that you can't crit if you wouldn't hit anyway, but that's only one reading of this (annoyingly ambiguous) rule.

Sorry, -- N

 

[Klaus]

Can't see anything ambiguous there. If you roll both dice high enough to hit, and both yield the same number, it's not only a hit, but a critical one.

 

[DracoSuave]

Unfortunately, I don't think it's quite clear either way.

The language in the PHB for the Epic feats which give you 19-20 crits looks like this: (emphasis mine)

The difference between "you can score a critical hit" and "you score a critical hit" should be obvious: the former provides an opportunity, the latter could be read to confer a result.

IMHO the more balanced interpretation is that you can't crit if you wouldn't hit anyway, but that's only one reading of this (annoyingly ambiguous) rule.

Sorry, -- N

This is also unambiguous.

"(only a natural 20 is an automatic hit)"

Does the path feature say that it is an automatic hit? No? It doesn't? Then there's no exception to the above -unambiguous rule-.

I rolled two 8s. Awesome. Are they natural 20s? No? Then they are not an automatic hit. Does the path feature say anything about automaticly hitting? No? Is their a rule that covers when you crit without a natural 20? Yes?

Then, you apply the rule. Show me where you don't.

Can't see anything ambiguous there. If you roll both dice high enough to hit, and both yield the same number, it's not only a hit, but a critical one.

That part, fortunately, is pretty well understood. It's a different case that seems to provide problems.

 

[Nifft]

This is also unambiguous.

"(only a natural 20 is an automatic hit)"

Does the path feature say that it is an automatic hit? No? It doesn't? Then there's no exception to the above -unambiguous rule-.

I rolled two 8s. Awesome. Are they natural 20s? No? Then they are not an automatic hit. Does the path feature say anything about automaticly hitting? No? Is their a rule that covers when you crit without a natural 20? Yes?

Then, you apply the rule. Show me where you don't.

Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

Let me highlight the bit you've somehow missed:

Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

-- N

 

[BobTheNob]

The wording in ambiguous for me too. The thing is, when I crunched the numbers I found that the crit chance if gave you (if you assume it needs to hit) is all of a (trumpets and drumroll) 2.25% Better chance if you need an 11 to hit. As you go down the scale (i.e. it gets easier to hit) this improves to 4.5% at a target roll of two. As it gets harder, this diminishes down to 0% (at your normal crit number).

So, its as good as some other paragon paths IF I was attacking a creature I would slaughter anyway! Unfortunately, RAW it sounds great on paper, but if you really do the analysis...its weak. Really weak.
The thing with this is I am interested in rolling up an avenger, but looking at all of the boards on how to compose an avenger, NONE of them recommend this PP for this reason. They all to cheeseball things like multiclass cleric/radiant servent, multiclass warlock/Student of Caiphon, multiclass rogue/daggermaster.

With any character, I hold the convication that they are defined both by there efficacy (i.e. what are there numbers and how do abilities synergise to produce results) and there theme. I hate multiclassing into something I didnt see as the theme of my toon to be effective a I hate sacrificing efficacy for the sake of the theme. Best character are those that have both.

With avengers dropping crit rating has a profound effect on overall chance to crit, and I think the deisgners understood this and gave an ability that increased crit rating without leveraging against the double roll, problem is RAW it just came out weak.

My gut feel sais RAI we are meant to give the crit on a double roll even if roll is naturally a miss. It just doesnt work otherwise