Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[DracoSuave]

Actually, this is not Daggermaster territory. A Daggermaster scores a crit 15% of the time, rather than your standard 5%, giving it a 10% increase.

5% + close to 5% for Oath + close to 5% for feature = close to 15%.

15% IS Daggermaster country.

Only if it's auto hit tho.



Edit: Also, another reason why the ambiguity should not exist:

Let's say you have a monster with Vulnerable Fire 5.

You attack him with a fireball, and your fireball normally does 3d6 + Intellegence Modifier.

Now, do you deal those extra five damage, or do you ignore vulnerability because the power says '3d6 + Intellegence Modifier' which is "clearly an exception to the vulnerability rules"?

Why, of -course- you deal the extra five damage. Unless the power told you to ignore vulnerable, you'd apply it, because that is the only thing that makes logical sense. Vulnerable is an ability of the logical form "When Situation X, Do Y." and Fireball is a clear example of Situation X.

The rule Precision is also an ability of the logical form "when situation X, do Y" except Situation X is 'when a feature allows you to roll numbers other than 20 for a critical' and do Y is "Do not automatically hit unless the roll is a 20."

The feature is even written using the same language as Precision: 'score' a critical hit. There's no indication -not- to apply it.

 

[Nifft]

Here's the WHOLE rule again. With the parts -you- missed highlighted. Read it. Then read it again. It applies to this -very- situation. The feature says you score a critical hit, great. Then that means that Precision then kicks in. You've got general, now let's get specific.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

Precision is a rule designed to interract with features and powers that allow you to roll a critical hit with other than 20. Yes?

This feature allows you to roll a critical hit with other than 20. Yes? Does it say, explicitly, that Precision does not apply? Does it say, explicitly, or even implicitly, that you automaticly hit as well as score a crit? No? Does the ability say 'You automatically hit?' No?

Precision applies to this feature.

Simple as that. If it didn't, then it wouldn't apply to any other crit-altering mechanic either. And that means the Precision rule does nothing.

Seriously. The rule is -right there-. It is -unambiguous.- The rule applies -directly- to the situation.

According to the rule specificly regarding altered critical hit possibilities, only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

Please explain where the feature suggests otherwise. Scoring a critical hit is already covered by Precision, -explicitly-. Show me where the words 'automatic hit' come into play here, other than it only happening with 20s.

It says you hit. (Specifically, it says you score a critical hit.)

That means: you hit.

The word "automatic" doesn't come into play, because it's NOT automatic. It only occurs under certain conditions. (Those conditions are spelled out in the rules, but I'll repeat them if you don't remember what I'm talking about.)

Sheesh, -- N

 

[abyssaldeath]

One thing my DM brought up is that the more you increase your crit chance(feats, magic items, powers) the less useful Holy Ardent becomes, especially if you are required to hit.

 

[DracoSuave]

It says you hit. (Specifically, it says you score a critical hit.)

That means: you hit.

Except that Precision comes around and says you do not, in fact, automatically hit.

Right. I get that. You read the path feature. Now read Precison. Notice it says 'Score a critical hit.' Same exact language. Verbatim. So, when you score a critical hit, Precision applies. Situation A means Apply B.

It says that yes, some abilities allow you, verbatim, to score a critical hit. And then it says -Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.- Verbatim.

So, therefore, when you score a critical hit, only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

Mentioning that the feature allows you to score a critical hit is relevant, because it tells you to apply the damn rule about scoring critical hits without rolling 20s.

Saying otherwise is logically like saying that vulnerability to fire doesn't apply to Fireball because fireball says you do that damage, and doesn't say you do more. Look, it even says exactly how much damage you deal! Vulnerability does not apply!

The only ambiguity that exists is one that involves ignoring the rules as written.

So, then, explain again, please, why 'scoring a critical hit' means that you don't apply Precision. And please, explain what Precision means by 'score a critical hit' because the only way there is an ambiguity is if you believe that 'score a critical hit' doesn't mean the same as 'score a critical hit.'

 

[Nifft]

Except that Precision comes around and says you do not, in fact, automatically hit.

Right. I get that. You read the path feature. Now read Precison. Notice it says 'Score a critical hit.' Same exact language. Verbatim. So, when you score a critical hit, Precision applies. Situation A means Apply B.

It says that yes, some abilities allow you, verbatim, to score a critical hit. And then it says -Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.- Verbatim.

So, therefore, when you score a critical hit, only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

Mentioning that the feature allows you to score a critical hit is relevant, because it tells you to apply the damn rule about scoring critical hits without rolling 20s.

Saying otherwise is logically like saying that vulnerability to fire doesn't apply to Fireball because fireball says you do that damage, and doesn't say you do more. Look, it even says exactly how much damage you deal! Vulnerability does not apply!

The only ambiguity that exists is one that involves ignoring the rules as written.

So, then, explain again, please, why 'scoring a critical hit' means that you don't apply Precision. And please, explain what Precision means by 'score a critical hit' because the only way there is an ambiguity is if you believe that 'score a critical hit' doesn't mean the same as 'score a critical hit.'

Are you really asking me why a specific rule (which even you can see says that you hit) should trump the general rule?

I explained the difference in language between this particular rule and the feats to which Precision applies in my first post to this thread.

I even used bold to help people figure out what was different.

-- N

 

[DracoSuave]

Are you really asking me why a specific rule (which even you can see says that you hit) should trump the general rule?

I explained the difference in language between this particular rule and the feats to which Precision applies in my first post to this thread.

I even used bold to help people figure out what was different.

-- N

You bolded the words 'score a critical hit.' Precision also has the words 'score a critical hit.'

They are the same thing.

The words 'You Hit' does not exist in the feature. I know, I read it twice. Only 'Score a critical hit.' And precision then applies.

Or are you saying that every time 'Score a critical hit' appears, precision doesn't apply?

Cause... um... then [weapontype] Mastery, Daggermaster, and all critical-hit affecting stuff that say 'You score a critical hit' also automaticly hit, because apparently 'You score a critical hit' to you means, you hit.

In which case, what does Precision mean? Because your interpretation means that that rule -does nothing.-

 

[Nifft]

In which case, what does Precision mean? Because your interpretation means that that rule -does nothing.-

It is a general rule.

It is trumped by several specific rules.

When a specific rule trumps it, it does not apply (and it can use its free time to do whatever it wishes, including nothing).

-- N

 

[Eldorian]

Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.

Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

I'm not seeing the issue. Class features and powers that allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 still require you to actually hit before the roll is considered a critical hit.

 

[BobTheNob]

Nifft does have a point. Precision is the general rule in this scenario (its the rule of thumb designed to cover numerous scenarios), Holy Ador is specific (it covers one scenario for one PP). Not the other way around.

If you want to argue that specific trumps general, then Holy Ador crits on matching rolls regardless of hit or miss chance.

But put the "it has this word" and the "look at page XXX sub paragraph YYY" into your back pocket and think about this.

Its a defining PP ability and should be potent and defining. Unfortunately, if you have to hit to get this extra crit chance...its piss weak. If you allow to crit even when its a miss its nearly ass good as other PP crit boosts and you get an almost insignificant boost to to hit.

If you want to peak into the minds of the designers and figure out what they intended (before Sally the typist made a mistake leading us to this rules lawyer debate) crunch the numbers and compare.

Without new evidence, it has to be RAW and RAI that hit or miss the crit applies on a double roll.

 

[N8Ball]

Cause... um... then [weapontype] Mastery, Daggermaster, and all critical-hit affecting stuff that say 'You score a critical hit' also automaticly hit, because apparently 'You score a critical hit' to you means, you hit.

None of these things you mentioned say "you score a critical hit". They all say "you can score a critical hit" - meaning possibility not certainty.

"you score a critical hit" reads with certainty and that's why precision doesn't apply in this case, because that specific rule disagrees with the general rule of precision.

In fact, it's such a strong exception to general rules (more than just precision) that it was necessary to spell out what general rules were preserved. (missing on ones).