TSR Blast from the Past- How to Go Full Monty Haul in AD&D

[coyote6]

*(an example of a pulp protagonist wielding a hand axe alongside a sword isn't immediately leaping to mind, but I'll bet there is one).

The example there might be from Westerns: knife and tomahawk, maybe?

 

[Voadam]

Naw. If you want to go Full Grognard, you have to stroke your beard and say, "AD&D? It was all downhill once they started releasing supplements to the Little Brown Books. Supplements? Real D&D players don't need to SUPPLEMENT THEIR IMAGINATION! Harumph."

I do consider the thief in Supplement I Greyhawk a terrible class design that screwed up fairly decent class balance in the original books. It also introduced paladins with terrible alignment mechanics and introduced percentile strength.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I do consider the thief in Supplement I Greyhawk a terrible class design that screwed up fairly decent class balance in the original books.

I'm confused .... the original books? The OD&D thief was introduced in Supplement I (Greyhawk).

Do you mean the original Gygax version published in the Great Plains Newsletter #9?

Or do you mean the legendary "Switzer" (probably Daniel David Wagner) version that Gygax cribbed and used a modified spell-based system, but we don't have written documentation for?

Or McDuck, who didn't have thief skills, but did thief things? Oh ... no ... not the great thief debate!

 

[Voadam]

The example there might be from Westerns: knife and tomahawk, maybe?

I don't remember this from reading the novels a couple decades ago, but Gygax was a huge Lieber fan and 1e Deities & Demigods says

I think I remember in some novels Conan fighting with a small axe or a hatchet and a dagger as well, though I could not say which one.

A lot of Conan, particularly Beyond the Black River, were basically fantasy versions of frontier cowboy and Indian stories.

 

[Mannahnin]

Naw. If you want to go Full Grognard, you have to stroke your beard and say, "AD&D? It was all downhill once they started releasing supplements to the Little Brown Books. Supplements? Real D&D players don't need to SUPPLEMENT THEIR IMAGINATION! Harumph."

I do consider the thief in Supplement I Greyhawk a terrible class design that screwed up fairly decent class balance in the original books. It also introduced paladins with terrible alignment mechanics and introduced percentile strength.

I'm confused .... the original books? The OD&D thief was introduced in Supplement I (Greyhawk).

Yes. That's exactly the point. He's agreeing. In accordance with one of the classic sides in the Great Thief Debate.

 

[Mannahnin]

Or do you mean the legendary "Switzer" (probably Daniel David Wagner) version that Gygax cribbed and used a modified spell-based system, but we don't have written documentation for?

Darrold Daniel Wagner (or just Darrold Wagner is how he goes on FB).

 

[Voadam]

I'm confused .... the original books? The OD&D thief was introduced in Supplement I (Greyhawk).

Do you mean the original Gygax version published in the Great Plains Newsletter #9?

Or do you mean the legendary "Switzer" (probably Daniel David Wagner) version that Gygax cribbed and used a modified spell-based system, but we don't have written documentation for?

Or McDuck, who didn't have thief skills, but did thief things? Oh ... no ... not the great thief debate!

No, the balance of classes in the original 0D&D books in the boxed set before the supplements came out. The balance of tank fighting man, artillery magic user, and hybrid cleric who was decent but not as good at fighting as a fighting man (full armor but less hp, no magic swords) or as good at magic as a magic user (fewer spells, less artillery spells) but had their own niches as well (turning undead, healing).

Thieves were variant magic users with leather armor and crappy sword use and terrible hard to pull off skills and backstabs which were not comparable at all to the power of a magic user's spells. Thieves were terrible at combat, their occasional backstab with a sword was just not comparable to the vancian nukes of an MU.

The crappy percentage skills were not really a trade off for the lack of spells or poor fighting either if you wanted a spotlight balance trade off of combat versus non combat stuff.

 

[Distracted DM]

I don't remember this from reading the novels a couple decades ago, but Gygax was a huge Lieber fan and 1e Deities & Demigods says

View attachment 413810
I think I remember in some novels Conan fighting with a small axe or a hatchet and a dagger as well, though I could not say which one.

A lot of Conan, particularly Beyond the Black River, were basically fantasy versions of frontier cowboy and Indian stories.

Holy crud, 120hp? And his stats are stacked.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Darrold Daniel Wagner (or just Darrold Wagner is how he goes on FB).

Ugh, I can never remember that correctly. TY.

 

[jolt]

Hmm... my memory played me false. But when I recorded it off of HBO in 1981, it was "Episode IV". Interesting.

To digress momentarily from Snarf's symposium, even from Lucas, there was originally no expectation of a second movie. The original sequel to Star Wars was going to be Alan Dean Foster's book 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye'. He also wrote the novelization of the first star Wars movie (uncredited) and it had the subtitle 'The Adventures of Luke Skywalker'. Lucas acts like this never happened and loves to talk about how it was "always" about Darth Vader (except, of course, when it wasn't).