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<blockquote data-quote="Dan'L" data-source="post: 4908611" data-attributes="member: 68954">So, then, would you consider that the &quot;newly created situation&quot; of rolling doubles then still also qualifies as &quot;roll(ing) numbers?&quot;&nbsp; And that if these numbers are not 20, then it further would qualify to &quot;roll(ing) numbers other than 20?&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; I really only bring this up because of your incessant insistence that this is new situation is somehow not governed by Precision, simply because it is new and different than 18/19-20.&nbsp; I don't think it's the crux of the matter, in any case.But unless you're using different dice than 99.99%* of the players out there, those &quot;doubles&quot; also qualify as &quot;numbers.&quot;&nbsp; New situation, same old rules applicability.(*okay, this statistic I just completely made up, but you get the idea.)Yes, it does.&nbsp; However, it does not allow you to &quot;hit&quot; on a double.&nbsp; In 4ed, as has been shown, &quot;critical hit&quot; and &quot;hit&quot; are distinctly separate (though sometimes related) terms with different meanings.This is incorrect.&nbsp; Nowhere in the rules that I have in my PHB, or that you have quoted from your PHB or the Compendium, actually indicate that scoring a critical hit allows you to apply the damage.&nbsp; The only places that I have found that allow you to apply damage are when you hit, when you miss with miss effects, or when other specific condition effects allow it(such as zones).&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Critical Hits&quot; is not one of these places.&nbsp; Let's examine another key portion of the critical hit rules:So what does this allow for upon scoring a critical hit?&nbsp; Only for determining a damage amount, not for applying the damage.&nbsp; Attacks that miss are&nbsp; attacks that &quot;don't deal damage&quot; (unless there is a miss effect/effect to the contrary*)(relevant rules for a miss found on PHB p.276) and therefore by Critical Hit Damage rules &quot;still don't deal damage.&quot;So let's go back and look at Holy Ardor one more time.&nbsp; Does it give a rule with a new condition for determining if you score a critical hit?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Does it give a rule with a new condition for determining if you hit?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; For determining if you hit, and then by extension determining if you actually get to apply that wonderful critical hit max damage, you still must use your Oath of Enmity rules as before.&nbsp; If your 2 from rolling double 2s doesn't add up to enough to equal or exceed the target's appropriate defense value then, as written, it's not a hit.&nbsp; Critical Hit: yes, Hit: no.&nbsp; More to the point, if your total attack roll is lower than the target's defense value then the attack is a &quot;Miss,&quot; and by the rules of attack results, an attack that misses (normally) deals no damage, and &quot;attacks that don't deal damage&quot; (such as attacks with a &quot;miss&quot; result and no &quot;miss&quot; damage effects) &quot;still don't deal damage on a critical hit.&quot;(*It is certainly arguable, though, that if you have Holy Ardor, roll double 2s, miss with a daily power that has a 1/2 damage miss effect then you get to apply 1/2 of your maximum damage and extra damage for the crit.)-Dan'L</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dan'L, post: 4908611, member: 68954"] So, then, would you consider that the "newly created situation" of rolling doubles then still [I][B]also[/B][/I] qualifies as "roll(ing) numbers?" And that if these numbers are not 20, then it further would qualify to "roll(ing) numbers other than 20?" I really only bring this up because of your incessant insistence that this is new situation is somehow not governed by Precision, simply because it is new and different than 18/19-20. I don't think it's the crux of the matter, in any case. But unless you're using different dice than 99.99%* of the players out there, those "doubles" also qualify as "numbers." New situation, same old rules applicability. (*okay, this statistic I just completely made up, but you get the idea.) Yes, it does. However, it does [B][I]not[/I][/B] allow you to "hit" on a double. In 4ed, as has been shown, "critical hit" and "hit" are distinctly separate (though sometimes related) terms with different meanings. This is incorrect. Nowhere in the rules that I have in my PHB, or that you have quoted from your PHB or the Compendium, actually indicate that scoring a critical hit allows you to [B][I]apply[/I][/B] the damage. The only places that I have found that allow you to apply damage are when you hit, when you miss with miss effects, or when other specific condition effects allow it(such as zones). "Critical Hits" is not one of these places. Let's examine another key portion of the critical hit rules: So what does this allow for upon scoring a critical hit? Only for determining a damage amount, not for applying the damage. Attacks that miss are attacks that "don't deal damage" (unless there is a miss effect/effect to the contrary*)(relevant rules for a miss found on PHB p.276) and therefore by Critical Hit Damage rules "still don't deal damage." So let's go back and look at Holy Ardor one more time. Does it give a rule with a new condition for determining if you score a critical hit? Yes. Does it give a rule with a new condition for determining if you hit? No. For determining if you hit, and then by extension determining if you actually get to [B][I]apply[/I][/B] that wonderful critical hit max damage, you still must use your Oath of Enmity rules as before. If your 2 from rolling double 2s doesn't add up to enough to equal or exceed the target's appropriate defense value then, as written, it's not a hit. Critical Hit: yes, Hit: no. More to the point, if your total attack roll is lower than the target's defense value then the attack is a "Miss," and by the rules of attack results, an attack that misses (normally) deals no damage, and "attacks that don't deal damage" (such as attacks with a "miss" result and no "miss" damage effects) "still don't deal damage on a critical hit." (*It is certainly arguable, though, that if you have Holy Ardor, roll double 2s, miss with a daily power that has a 1/2 damage miss effect then you get to apply 1/2 of your maximum damage and extra damage for the crit.) -Dan'L [/QUOTE]

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