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<blockquote data-quote="N8Ball" data-source="post: 4910323" data-attributes="member: 63757">Not all critical hits have to be &quot;automatic hits&quot;&nbsp; That has been true since the first mastery feat.&nbsp; And anyway, an &quot;automatic hit&quot; is not defined as &quot;a hit that would otherwise miss if you compared attack scores&quot;.&nbsp; It is sometimes that, but 20s that hit are also technically &quot;automatic hits&quot;Plus, achieving a similar result as &quot;automatic hit&quot; through different means does not require one to call it an &quot;automatic hit&quot;, even if there are some coincident results.&nbsp; In other words, not saying &quot;automatic hit&quot; does not deny the possibility of arriving at similar results by other means.Where does it state when you check doubles?&nbsp; It never says that it must be after (or dependent on) a successful hit roll.&nbsp; I want to check first, what's wrong with that?&nbsp; And in reality, that's the more likely case anyway since noticing that 2 numbers are the same is a bit faster than addition to find an attack score.The basic rules say that you only crit if you hit.&nbsp; You always apply &quot;maximum damage&quot; when you crit. There is no such thing as an &quot;automatic crit&quot; at least not as a game term.&nbsp; Saying that Holy ardor doesn't achieve this undefined thing isn't really meaningful.&nbsp; Holy Ardor achieves Crits, and you apply them when you get them.I agree completely.&nbsp; Holy Ardor fully bypasses the &quot;Natural 20&quot; rule which has TWO requirements, one of which is a successful attack roll.Precision applies, but does not deny anything.&nbsp; It only states that Holy Ardor doesn't add to the rule that 20 is an &quot;automatic hit&quot;.&nbsp; But we already know that hits and crits are available by other means.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="N8Ball, post: 4910323, member: 63757"] Not all critical hits have to be "automatic hits" That has been true since the first mastery feat. And anyway, an "automatic hit" is not defined as "a hit that would otherwise miss if you compared attack scores". It is sometimes that, but 20s that hit are also technically "automatic hits" Plus, achieving a similar result as "automatic hit" through different means does not require one to call it an "automatic hit", even if there are some coincident results. In other words, not saying "automatic hit" does not deny the possibility of arriving at similar results by other means. Where does it state [B]when[/B] you check doubles? It never says that it must be [B]after[/B] (or dependent on) a successful hit roll. I want to check first, what's wrong with that? And in reality, that's the more likely case anyway since noticing that 2 numbers are the same is a bit faster than addition to find an attack score. The basic rules say that you only [B]crit if you hit[/B]. You [B]always[/B] apply "maximum damage" [B]when you crit. [/B] There is no such thing as an "automatic crit" at least not as a game term. Saying that Holy ardor doesn't achieve this undefined thing isn't really meaningful. Holy Ardor achieves Crits, and you apply them when you get them. I agree completely. Holy Ardor fully bypasses the "Natural 20" rule which has [B]TWO[/B] requirements, one of which is a successful attack roll. Precision applies, but does not deny anything. It only states that Holy Ardor doesn't add to the rule that 20 is an "automatic hit". But we already know that hits and crits are available by other means. [/QUOTE]

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