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<blockquote data-quote="N8Ball" data-source="post: 4910445" data-attributes="member: 63757">Excellent post.&nbsp; Here is my evidence:Critical hit is a subset of hit,&nbsp; Supported by the following:-&gt; Critical Hit is an entry indented under hit.-&gt; The basic requirements for a crit include hitting before you get there, not after.&nbsp; I.E. crit is the destination, not an intermediate step.-&gt; The descriptions of critical hit in 3 places--&gt; High crit, --&gt; Valanae example on 276--&gt; The critical hit entry under hits, first it says that you might crit and then it says what happends if you DO.Each of these 3 parts talks about achieving a crit and offer no more requirements, they just describe an effect.&nbsp; The hit is assumed in every instance.I appreciate you putting 'automatic' in quotes.&nbsp; It makes your statement much clearer.&nbsp; It does beg the question what you mean by &quot;automatic&quot; because &quot;automatic&quot; isn't really defined either.&nbsp; It's just amplifying and provides no explicit requirements or implications.We agree that rolling a 20 lets you &quot;automatically&quot; succeed on a attack roll.Following that form and use of the word &quot;automatically&quot;,A lets you &quot;automatically&quot; succeed on an attack roll.You could just as easily replace A with B and the statement would still be true according to the rules, where B is &quot;have an attack roll high enough to hit&quot;.&nbsp; So A is not the only way to &quot;automatically&quot; hit.&nbsp; (NOTE: We're not talking about &quot;automatic hit&quot; rules, we're simply using &quot;automatic&quot; as an adjective (or adverb).)Yes, I know it's a tautology, but the point is that &quot;automatically&quot; doesn't come with any mechanical weight.&nbsp; In the case of Holy Ardor, (using the logical terms defined on page 8)(D and not E) gives you Xsince X is a subset of H(D and not E) logically achieve HThe seams in my argument are if you can show elements of X that fall outside H, but if you acknowledge permissive language in the crit abilities, that becomes a pretty tight seam.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="N8Ball, post: 4910445, member: 63757"] Excellent post. Here is my evidence: [B]Critical hit is a subset of hit,[/B] Supported by the following: -> Critical Hit is an entry indented under hit. -> The basic requirements for a crit include hitting [B]before[/B] you get there, not after. I.E. crit is the destination, not an intermediate step. -> The descriptions of critical hit in 3 places --> High crit, --> Valanae example on 276 --> The critical hit entry under hits, first it says that you might crit and then it says what happends if you DO. Each of these 3 parts talks about achieving a crit and offer no more requirements, they just describe an effect. The hit is assumed in every instance. I appreciate you putting 'automatic' in quotes. It makes your statement much clearer. It does beg the question what you mean by "automatic" because "automatic" isn't really defined either. It's just amplifying and provides no explicit requirements or implications. We agree that rolling a 20 lets you "automatically" succeed on a attack roll. Following that form and use of the word "automatically", A lets you "automatically" succeed on an attack roll. You could just as easily replace A with B and the statement would still be true according to the rules, where B is "have an attack roll high enough to hit". So A is not the only way to "automatically" hit. (NOTE: We're not talking about "automatic hit" rules, we're simply using "automatic" as an adjective (or adverb).) Yes, I know it's a tautology, but the point is that "automatically" doesn't come with any mechanical weight. In the case of Holy Ardor, (using the logical terms defined on page 8) (D and not E) gives you X since X is a subset of H (D and not E) logically achieve H The seams in my argument are if you can show elements of X that fall outside H, but if you acknowledge permissive language in the crit abilities, that becomes a pretty tight seam. [/QUOTE]

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