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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CovertOps" data-source="post: 4913190" data-attributes="member: 65152">He is describing the same thing I've been saying all along in a different context.What it comes down to is this one simple difference between our two viewpoints.Those that say Holy Ardor grants a hit even if you don't beat the targets defense follow this line of logic:1. I rolled doubles.2. Holy Ardor states that I got a critical.3. A critical is a subset of "Hit" therefore I hit.Note that this step requires you to ASSUME that this assertion is true.  We have incontrovertible proof that there are mechanics already in the system that allow you to have a critical and still miss so this is a very hard sell for us.Those of us that believe the opposite:1. I rolled doubles (ok we can agree here)2. Holy Ardor states that I got a critical. (wow we even agree here)3. Does Holy Ardor override the hit rules? No  (Note that no assumption is needed to be made here)4. Did I hit? Yes = critical   No = miss.@Artoomis:  You can be right as soon as they add text to Holy Ardor that says "You hit even if you would normally miss" or similar phrasing.  And yes I know that as far as you're concerned the "you score a critcal" IS the override, but I'm sorry I can't go with the assumption that is required to make that true.  I'm also pretty sure that our position can be correct as far as you're concerned as soon as it says "you can score a critical hit".Now which of those changes do you think is better.  The addition of a single word or the addition of a specific rule override in an exception based system?Just so I'm clear.  I'm not arguing Precision any longer.  You get the critical hit.  It quite clearly says that you do.  However, Holy Ardor does nothing to override the basic HIT rules. Your position requires you to ASSUME that because you have a critical that therefore it is already a hit.  Without specific wording within Holy Ardor to override the HIT rules (as I put above) I am not willing to accept that assumption and I'm pretty sure that neither are the rest of us arguing against this.  4e is exception based.  Show me your exception (to the hit rules) without an assumption to get there and I'll support you 100%, but you can't because that's not what it says.</blockquote>

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