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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 4917991" data-attributes="member: 71571">So... um... his logic still applies ya?But regardless:This would be a convincing argument except for one single flaw.  The idea that a crit does not always hit is founded in the very rules that describe crits in the first place.  So you have rules -outside- critical hit that tell you what to do when you critically hit successfully, and that's all fine and good, but you have to successfully do so first--and the critical hit rules themselves tell you that this is not always the case.  So, you have 'suggestions' it might not get cancelled, but your opposing camp has a -rule- that says it does get cancelled.It adds on an additional method to provoke an attack of opportunity.  It says '____ provokes an opportunity attack'.  Plain language.  Flat out -says- it.  What is different is Holy Ardor does not flat out say that you hit, and you have language that says you do not hit in the rules themselves.As well, opportunity attacks do not tell you that you cannot OA from melee or close attacks, or suggest that you can't.  What it tells you is a list of times when you do so.  And then it adds this on.  Critical hits, on the other hand, gives you a short list of times when a critical can be an automatic hit (on a natural-20, and even then automatic hit <> critical) and then -flat out tells you- that non-20s do not qualify.The two examples seem similiar but there are quite jarring differences between them, logically.Heh.Also, to prestall a rebuttal, 'automatic hit' within the critical hit rules clearly refers to the instance where you ignore the normal hit resolution rules and not to cases where you ignore what the dice say or do.  You -know- this because you actually have to roll the dice and check what you roll before the automatic hit from a 20 can even be applied.So, if your dice are rolling on the table, and you're skipping the hit roll, then that's what is refered to by 'automatic hit'.  So yes, it -is- applicable in the case of Precision and Holy Ardor.In the first case, yes, it -is- a new way of scoring a critical hit.  But that means we must apply the critical hit rules, and one of them says you have to check to see if it is a natural 20, because if not, you do not have an automatic hit, and therefore -must- check the normal hit rules in order to continue.If you have a critical hit, you apply the critical hit rules.  You do not -skip- the critical hit rules unless you are told to do so.So, again, I challenge you:Find me the automatic hit.  If it exists it is in the green parts:Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of emnity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll , except if both rolls are 1.The red parts are directly refered to by Precision, and Precision has every reason to modify it.  Show me language in there that either claims Precision does not, or that the ability circumvents Precision.That is all you need to do to prove your case, is -prove- the rule does not apply.  When a rule has language that states it applies, it applies in the absense of an exception.  Show the -exception.-  That is the -one- thing you have yet to do.</blockquote>

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